Supertest: Medium Tanks Changes

Source: EU Forums

We continue working on implementing selective balance changes to certain vehicles. Earlier we talked about the list of planned changes for heavy tanks of 3 branches: the E 100, the IS-4, and the T110E5. However, changes for two medium tank branches are released to Supertest today: the Progetto 65 and the Object 430U.

Much time has passed since the release of these vehicles, and all that time they have been unchanged. The top-tier Italian vehicle was considered by many to be a complex and demanding vehicle that can perform well only in the hands of experienced players, mostly because of its autoreloading mechanics. Speaking of the Soviet medium tank, it was and still is a vehicle that’s easy to learn, which, thanks to its good armor and generally nice gun handling, became a hybrid of heavy and medium vehicles that combined the survivability and firepower of the former with the advantage in dynamics of the latter.

With time, it became obvious that these vehicles that were simply good at the start, started to stand out in efficiency from the competition because of the growing skill of their owners. These vehicles are available to everyone, they are growing in numbers and start influence the balance in general, both in Random Battles and in special modes. Because of this, we are considering a possibility to change their characteristics, the full list of the changes is provided below.

Please note that these changes are not final.

Progetto 65

It’s a versatile medium tank that’s able to deal much damage in short bursts and to sustain normal cyclical fire. The changes are aimed at decreasing the efficiency of long-range shooting along with an indirect decrease in general damage per minute. It’s worth noting that the main feature of the whole branch, the autoreloading system, stays intact, along with the play style in general. The loading time for separate shells and the shell autoreloading time will stay the same.

Along with the changes to the characteristics of the vehicle, we are also considering an option to remove the ability to mount a Gun Rammer on the Italian Tier IX-X vehicles.

Progetto 65:

Turret Traverse Speed: from 36 to 34

Aiming Time (s): from 2.1 to 2.5

Increased the dispersion after firing a shot

Dispersion at 100 m (m): from 0.33 to 0.35

Removed the ability to mount the Gun Rammer

Apart from the Tier X vehicle, changes were also made to the Tier IX vehicle.

Standard B

Turret Traverse Speed (stock): from 32 to 30

The Cannone da 90 Rh gun in the stock turret:

Aiming Time (s): from 2 to 2.1

Increased the dispersion after firing a shot

The Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun in the stock turret:

Aiming Time (s): from 2.4 to 2.6; Dispersion at 100 m (m): from 0.35 to 0.37;

Increased the dispersion after firing a shot

Turret Traverse Speed (top): from 34 to 32

The Cannone da 90 Rh gun in the top turret:

Aiming Time (s): from 2 to 2.1; Dispersion at 100 m (m): from 0.32 to 0.33

Increased the dispersion after firing a shot

The Cannone da 105 Rh V1 gun in the top turret:

Aiming Time (s): from 2.3 to 2.5; Dispersion at 100 m (m): from 0.35 to 0.37

Increased the dispersion after firing a shot

Top engine power: from 750 to 690 (Specific Power: from 21.8 to 20)

Removed the ability to mount the Gun Rammer

Object 430U

A medium tank that combines features of both heavy and medium tanks. Such hybrids usually suffer from the drawbacks of both types, however the Object 430U managed to take the best from them. The changes to this tank will include the changes to its frontal armor and gun handling.

Object 430U:

Dispersion during movement and hull traverse: from 0.12 to 0.16

Dispersion during turret traverse: from 0.1 to 0.12

Nerf of frontal armor (created weak spots and decrease thickness a bit, so that E 50 had the same or better armor to add the two original nations’ armored medium tanks to the meta). The frontal view of the commander’s cupola and the gunner’s cupola will be weakened to about 270 mm of effective armor to allow the Tier IX-X vehicles to penetrate it there without using special shells.

The Object 430 will only have its gun handling changed.

Object 430

Dispersion during movement and hull traverse (both): from 0.14 to 0.16

Dispersion during turret traverse: from 0.1 to 0.12

Conclusion:

With these changes, we want to decrease the efficiency of the vehicles mentioned above and keep all their key features intact at the same time. The roles of the vehicles will not change, only some borderline cases that made the vehicles too efficient were affected. The mentioned changes are not final and are still tested. We will let you know about the final changes separately, please follow the news.

74 thoughts on “Supertest: Medium Tanks Changes

    1. Theres literally so many things OP with those tanks, and theres so many competitive tanks as well. Maybe play the game more before writing a comment as if you knew about it

      1. Doesn’t change the fact that with the 430U and the progetto nerfs, the chieftain, 279e and the 907 will be a cut above all the tech tree tanks outside of the stb1 perhaps. This is destroying the balance of the game, especially considering that the reward tanks can be used in ranked.

        There is also the ebr105, but that one is supposedly getting nerfed as well (thank RNGesus!).

        1. What balance? Wg doesn’t want a balanced game – you are supposed to chase the latest meta tank spending free xp and/or gold…

        2. All vehicles mentioned WG is thinking what to do with them (ok, i haven’t heard anything about STB1) … so yeah. Excluding some reward tanks from competetive modes included. Luckily WG understands a little more about balance then some players here, albeit that bar is really low.

          1. That’s the thing, WG clearly knows there is a huge issue with the some of the OP reward tanks but they are not willing to really do anything about it outside of perhaps giving them special MM in ranked where they meet each other like the EBRs currently. That’s nowhere near enough IMO. They should make unique reward tanks, not OP ones.

            1. They should make unique reward tanks, not OP ones.

              This, except as shown when Circon interviewed that WG clown, the latter said Chieftain and Object 279 were intended to be OP from the start, because “the best tanks for the best players”.

              And of course said best players are the most vocal defenders of their… privileges. Try and say Chieftain or Object need nerf in the forums, see the usual 5-6 morons jump you.

        3. why are people still crying about the 907, it’s really not that good anymore.. a lot of normal tanks are on par or even surpassed it by now.

        4. Not true. Learn the play., mostly semi or pro players easily kill T95, 279e and 907 cause of you jealous can’t get that tanks idiot. stop crying about that, in fact if you want get 279 keep hang on your mission done.

    1. Since it’s a craplector vehicle it isn’t relevant and needs no work. With love, WG.

  1. So Obj 430U “weakspots” will be 270mm effective and without loading gold they will still bounce 70% of incoming normal shells, getting pen reliably only by TDs.

    Why are they even bothering? Why are they wasting their own time? Seriously, just leave it as it is. Everyone knows it’s biased anyway. Instead of fake nerfs they could instead focus on other things and try doing them in a semi competent way, for a change.

    1. its literally in need, don’t cry about it In the comments because your favorite tank gets a bit nerfed. It literally needs the nerf, its a bit too strong compared to other vehicles

      1. It’s not my fav tank by any measure, and it needs a lot of reworking to be called ballanced. Nerfing turret in a way that you still need premium ammo to pen it, if you even manage to hit “weakspots” dead on, is so irrelevant that it will literally change nothing. It’s a waste of time. But I’ve said it already.

        They could just remove it from the game, as far as I’m concerned. That would save a lot of hassle. But Russians would cry too much.

  2. Why even bother nerfing the 430’s hatches if they’re still going to require gold from many tanks that face it?

    A weakspot should NEVER require the use of gold to pen it because ITS A FUCKING WEAKSPOT!!!

  3. Thank god these were cracked down on. I just wished they made the 430U cupola even thinner, like say 260 and 250. Now they just need to butcher the reward tanks.

  4. This game is fucking joke! It is fucking rigged for the player to lose and the EU should just fucking close this shit company.
    There is no fucking way it is OK to shoot with tier X swedish TD the EBR 105 not once, but twice and have as the only result a critical hit each time.
    There is no fucking way it is OK for the Grille 15 fully aimed to have it’s shell buried in the ground while the fucking Obj 277 snapshots laser aimed shells and kills you.

      1. He is right, though, on both accounts. It is plain stupid that the EBR tires can eat up high caliber shells just like that, and Russian guns are deliberately calibrated in the game to excel at snap shots. Being good or bad at the game has nothing to do with that; that’s just a lazy argument.

  5. A nerf of the Prosciutto 65 and the 430U? Is it Christmas already?

    Having said that, those ‘weakspots’ that have been added to the 430U look quite difficult to hit. And as to those poor Tier VIII’s bumping into 430’s and 430U’s, they will be as fucked as ever when the ‘weakspots’ they can aim for are still 270+ mm. As to the dispersion nerfs, I don’t think they count for much because Russian guns are generally much better than their stats indicate due to their hidden characteristics. No matter how high their dispersion values look on paper, Russian tanks will always be able to fire snapshots from hell. They are not like German tanks where you need to use the full aim time and then some to actually hit your target.

    And yet the Russian community will cry out in indignation even with these very moderate buffs …

    1. Ita meds don’t need any nerfs tho, but of course alot of people will say otherwise because they hate tanks with autoloaders in general, not just autoreloader,,,Meanwhile WG can’t nerf the tanks that are actually OP, like 279 and Chieftain, because they are “reward” tanks and all the cry babies will be on the forum…

    2. And what is this supposed to mean: “Nerf of frontal armor (created weak spots and decrease thickness a bit, so that E 50 had the same or better armor to add the two original nations’ armored medium tanks to the meta”) The E50M is quite a bit off the current meta, and tweaking the 430U a little bit here and there won’t change that.

      1. I think they meant to buff E50M armour and the changes to 430U in theory were supposed to match it. But even if E50M will ever get 270 effective armour on the turret, it’s going to be a whole lot larger area to shot at compared to two small hatches, that may be 270 effective frontally, but likely will still autobounce if not hit dead on.

        1. Don’t forget that e50M has a better gun that can be used to snipe and its lower plate is on another level compared to the 430U. Of course, this is considering they would actually buff the E50M.

          1. Hull was never E50M’s problem. I mean sure, it has good side armour allowing it to sidescrape, to some degree. But it’s the turret that is it’s bane.

            Hulldown is way stronger meta than sidescrape. But even for sidescrape you need well armoured turret.

            And as I was saying, even if, by some freak accident, WG decides to buff E50M tutter to 270 effective, at best it’s going to be a premium shell magnet, like E100 turret. While 430U turret will still be mostly invulnerable, because you need to hit these cupolas first, and likely right into the centre, where the actual 270 effective armour is, to worry about the penetration calculations.

            1. Just because there is a current hull-down meta, doesn’t mean we need to turn every tank into a hull-down one, then the game will lose all variety and be completely boring. WoT has always gone through phases, there was a heavy tank dominant phase, medium one, an arty one, a light tank one, a TD phase, the age of the autoloader, the autoreloader, and now it is the time of the fast hull down heavies/meds and wheelies. Shifting the meta is probably also part of WG’s strategy to keep players interested long term (whether that’s good or bad is another story).

              As for E50M specifically, you can’t give it hull armor AND turret armor AND a laser accurate gun AND mobility. The turret armor is its weakness, and sure E50M needs a buff probably but you just want to make it the new 430U.

            2. I agree. The turret is quite often the weakspot, especially since the armour is usually flat. What is making matters worse, though, is that Wargamings design philosophy for German guns is that they are generally crap at snap shooting – if you want to hit a target reliably, you have to aim, and that means exposing that vulnerable turret armour longer. Russian tanks, on the other hand, have much stronger turrets AND they are much better at snap shooting as well. Incidentally, I guess that is why they WG has decided to add weak spots to the 430U’s turret AND nerf dispersion – to make sure you’ll have to aim longer in it, so those weakspots are exposed for a longer period of time. I can see the reasoning behind it, but I doubt it will enough. Conversely, simply slapping on some armour on the E50M’s and, for that matter, the E100’s turret won’t change all that much. People will just load the gold and be merry. Honestly, I don’t believe for a minute that the E50M and the E100 will be meta tanks once more after the planned buffs. I just don’t think Wargaming are serious about it – the buffs will be half-baked affairs, just like the 430U’s buff looks like a half-hearted idea.

              1. For the E50M, its turret traverse dispersion is actually pretty decent so its snapshot ability is not as bad as most German tanks.

  6. The ads are super annoying covering left portion of text. Not sure if this is a good idea.

  7. is that supposed to be a joke? WG calls those nerfs?
    so you have a OP MT that can even dominate most Tier 10 heavy tanks and you finally have the courage to balance it and yet the nerf you apply isn’t even enough
    270mm of effective armor thickness for the cupolas means Tier 10 HTs can’t pen them with standard ammo, meanwhile you have a bunch of HTs with barn-sized cupolas with much less armor than that which can be penned by anyone, so where’s the logic?

    1. as most HT are higher than the 430U it will mitigate its armor on the cupolas. Thus ~250-255 mm of Pen should be enough to pen them.

      1. You can take it even further – the height difference also basically negates the upper plate’s effective armour. Or even more convenient, could just take advantage of the hull roof’s autopen ‘feature’

        1. 430U hull roof is only 30mm thick. But if 430U driver let you facehug him in a way to make use of that, it already means he’s very inexperienced, and that he never stood a chance to begin with, and the weakness is with the player, not the tank.

          1. in which fucking world the 430U has only 30mm roof?
            look up into tank.gg
            clearly it has 55mm so no overmatch for anything expect FV TD AP

            1. He said “hull roof” so what he meant was the hull deck which is indeed 30 mm.

              1. Oh so it IS called a deck. Thanks mate, had no idea if that was the right term. Roof kinda sounds dumb to me now 😅

                1. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the engine deck only covering…ahem…the engine area?

                  I meant the entire chonky, flat, horizontal surface at the top of the hull. Basically the thing that’d keep rain from pouring in

                  1. well, you were the one to agree with svyatoslav123 that you meant the deck so it isn’t really my fault on anything

                    besides it seems you all are talking about different things, the guy who replied to you meant turret roof (the part with 55mm of armor) but did not put that clear, then comes the guy and thinks you are talking about the rear part of the tank and you agree with him, so yeah, not my fault

          2. in what world does being able to pen the engine deck of a tank balance the fact that a HT cannot pen a MT weakspot from the front?
            are you guys really serious about that?
            furthermore the differences in height aren’t that large for most HTs and those which are tall enough either have low depression angles and/or are too sluggish due to being super heavy tanks (all German and Japanese top tiers) and/or have weak hull armor (French and Swedish HTs) or well known weakspots the Obj.430U can take full advantage in a “face hug” situation

              1. generally speaking they do, furthermore the M4 51/54 is limited to 8º of gun depression, if you are face hugging a 430U the most you can shoot will be the turret, so yeah, my argument that the roof is not a balance factor is still true

                besides if I were to take the hull roof argument as a valid balancing factor then I would also need to take into consideration that being lower than a AMX M4 51/54 means the Obj.430U can pen the M4 through the plate above the track, doing a simulation the Obj.430U can pen with 100% certainty even at a ange of 89º due to the overmatch mechanic and so both advantages nullify each other

      2. Let’s not forget that the lower plate is still trash and is an autopen for anything it can meet pretty much with standard rounds. I think there are 3 main issues with the 430U in its current state for me:

        1) The gun handling is too good for its relatively high alpha. WG addressed that in the proposed changes.

        2) The turret was slightly too good, however, that and the upper plate are its 2 main features so you can’t over-nerf that aspect. I think for the first round of nerfs, the proposed change is appropriate. At the very least, tier 10s and some tier 9s will have a chance to pen the turret with regular rounds and it will make it much easier to pen it with premium rounds which is appropriate for the current state of the game (the sad fact that the game is currently balanced around premium rounds is a separate issue). Then again, it is still early days and they might change the armor nerf one way or the other. We’ll see.

        3) The main thing that WG didn’t address here is its OP camo rating. There is no way that a tank with this much armor should have the camo AND the speed to get into MVP positions on the map. Its camo is joint best among tier 10 mediums which needs to be nerfed to around 17-20% on the move and like 25% while stationary (when fully equipped etc). This is the additional nerf I would like to see.

        1. Good point about the camo rating … I did not realize it was acutally that high. Good grief, what were they thinking when they designed this thing?!

  8. Wow, they are turning the 430U cupolas into actual weakspots!

    …oh wait, which tanks have enough pen to reliably go through 278mm of armor without loading gold?

    At least the nerfs to Standard/Progetto cancer look good, hopefully they’ll go through.

    1. The Ita meds are fine tho, why call them “cancer”? I guess you just hate autoloaders/autoreloaders in general…

      1. Autoloader tanks trade a lot of stuff to be able to burst things down. A few clicks one after the other and you get 1000/1500+ damage if all shots penetrate, that in itself is insane but at least in the older autoloaders it is balanced out by other cons – French have long clip reload and bad aim time/gun handling, Czech have low clip burst, American (T57 Heavy line) have again bad aim time/gun handling (but good clip reload and DPM) and bad mobility (so no shoot n scoot like the French).

        Italians? They have no drawbacks at all. Clip is empty? Nah no problem shells reload one at a time I can be a single shot tank if I need, gun handling is better than any other autoloader in the game as is aim time, can use gun rammer (KEK) because lol why not.

        Maybe argue in their favor instead of chalking it up to a question of hatred?

        1. pihip

          Its something else here bro.. not your 2 cents worth of trolling

          the GOLD cost real money from Jobs that people have y,know

          its a lot of GOLD that players buy to research/ grind these Vehicle lines out nobody anymore plays to grind modules they convert XP> Gold> real money> to unlock them

          If players knowing that WG a year or so after Italian Tech tree came into the game a big NERF hammer hits the T9 & T10

          simply put would NEVER have spent the TIME & GOLD on a now average same as same Tech tree

          its NOW called a LACK of TRUST in WG that you can spend your GOLD safely

          WG are cheating the players out of there expensive GOLD and f__king over there players at same time AGAIN!

          1. I am sorry, I don’t see how your rant relates to my previous comment. I will try to answer as best I can though.

            First of all, I am not trolling, I am dead serious.

            Second, your argument is, with all due respect, bullshit. I’ll explain.

            Games like this change constantly and, normally, should change for the sake of balance and game health. We know it’s not the case and that WG only cares about short term profit, but at the same time, what you’re saying makes me wonder if the players themselves, at least some of them, have become spoiled children.

            Going in-depth, the nerfs and buffs. If something is not extremely good to overpowered, it is shit by default. And if something WAS extremely good to overpowered yet it gets nerfed, or even scheduled for a nerf, as is the case for the Italian meds, people cry apocalypse and think the end times are upon us. Look at how popular the Object 268 V4 was, yet a shadow of a nerf and it’s become far less common.

            And about your complaints about “trust” and whatnot, you seriously expect WG to tell you well in advance (and in the case of Italian meds, we’re talking years) that this or that tank will be nerfed, so you can avoid grinding that line?

            I’m sorry but that’s simply absurd. If you’ve been playing for at least a few years, by now you should know how World of Tanks ticks.

  9. I think the Italian meds are fine as-is, considering how hard they are to play well and how demanding they are (reload management, paper armor, extensive map knowledge etc.).

    But that Obj. 430U nerf won’t be enough to make the tank more balanced, but hey, baby steps…

      1. Wrong direction how? They are nerfing a tank that they refused to touch last year, how is that not making headway? Maybe the nerf won’t be substantial, but it should be enough till WG gets enough “research” and nerf it even further in like 2 years or so.

        1. They may not be easy to play, but if you look at how well they do in terms of statistics – yes, I think they are a bit op. The one that irks me most, however, is the Progetto 46, the bane of Frontline (along with the wheeled pests). That one is really too strong for its Tier, but hey, it’s a premium so who cares.

          1. Yeah, I agree about the premium Progetto, however. I personally had no qualms regarding the T8, T9 and especially the T10.

            Looking at Wot-Life (not sure if they’re too reliable when it comes to global stats), the Italians sit at a comfortable 50% WR, sans the Progetto tier 8, which is 51%, and the Pantera, which is 49%. WN8 seems to be severely above average, too, for all Italians.

  10. “decrease thickness a bit, so that E 50 had the same or better armor”

    Glad to see that the Obj 430U’s inpenetrable rounded turret with now two angled 275mm cupolas is as thick or actually weaker than the E-50M’s 180mm flat front turret armor.

    1. They said E50 though. But litwrally everyone in the comments thought about the E50M.

      Why not yell at WG to keep their word and use the E50 as reference? :>

  11. this is just the next MISERY from WG , nothing else !
    “The frontal view of the commander’s cupola and the gunner’s cupola will be weakened to about 270 mm of effective armor to allow the Tier IX-X vehicles to penetrate it there without using special shells.”

    270mm fkin WEAKPOINT to pen for 250mm average pen power guns >?!?!?!
    HOW IMBECILE YOU MUT BE TO SAY THIS ?!?!
    270 is for fkin GOLD NOT FOR FKIN STANDARD MORONS !!

    dont have words anymore…

  12. If we can no longer use gun rammer on Progetto 65 and Standard B, so it will be the same for Progetto 45, P44 Pantera and IS-3A ?

  13. Aaand Italy tech tree dies with this. So long female crews. Have to switch bond equipment to other tanks too…

    WGs incompetence never siezes to surprise me.

    Btw, Neither progetto nor Standard B are overperforming, so no need for nerf. Just something too hard to understand for WG.

  14. Well!
    there you have it in f_ck black and white

    The only decent T10 & T9 MT,s that anyone can get that ARE NOT reward tanks get the NERF hammer … for reasons likely that big slow press W key HTs are getting farmed by them, really!

    The T9 & T10 Italian Mediums are glass cannons with zero brawling armour there role is Flanking with good accurate guns ~ the T9 has a long enough reload already
    Removing the Gun Rammer will really ANGER all those that spent ‘real money’ on Gold to grind out these 2 Mediums

    many 1000s players are now so really F__k pissed off!

    If WG go ahead with this “Go F__k yourself” bullcrap

    1000,s will want ALL there expensive Gold back as “compensation” for waste money and time Grinding a Italy tech tree to T10 ~ now for a line not interested in at all

    The 430U well its a T10 OP Soviet Ruskie Tank

    a little tickle with the Nerf feather so what? its Soviet comrade Stalin says ‘back off’

  15. ”the gunner’s cupola will be weakened to about 270 mm of effective armor to allow the Tier IX-X vehicles to penetrate it there without using special shells.”

    Cupolas are actually 278/274 after nerf.

    Tier 9s and 10s have 274mm non-special shells??

    since when?…..

  16. Fake obj430u nerfs so WG can say they are not biased, and that they are ‘actively working and reviewing all vehicle data and bla bla…’

  17. 430 is OP even when stock 90% crew. Just bought 430u (thanks for nerds wg) and everyone knows where to shoot

  18. nerf on Progetto is ok, the tank was really above normal for other MT’s with similar style, but the Object 430U was exegeratedly nerfed, it is worth remembering that the tank does not have a lot of depression, so the armor of the tower needs to hold more than usual for the player to get good places to shoot, changes in terrain would already indirectly nerf this tank.
    Regarding the chieftain, the real problem with this tank is its mobility and precision (even in movement) which is much above normal, the armor is ok, after all he is a heavy one.

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