Data: A quick look at some serious balancing issues – T110E5 Vs Super Conqueror

Disclaimer: This is not a WG bash post, but yeah, this is pretty inexcusable/ridiculous.

I decided to compare these two tanks specifically because they play similarly (Tech tree heavy tanks, plays hulldown, 400 alpha damage, quick reload, similar speed, etc)

The Super Conq was released in October of 2017.

Nothing here is news and anyone who plays the game understands this matchup, but if you want stats:

https://tanks.gg/compare/s-conqueror?t=t110e5

Literally, the super conqueror is better at EVERYTHING except the E5 is slightly more mobile. 

2 more degrees of depression, better turret armor, non huge easily penned cupola, better gun handling, a lot more DPM, 200 more hp even for some reason. Also the M103 is a joke compared to the Tier 9 conqueror as well.

The E5 has a better hull but it’s not like either tank is hard to pen in the hull, so that’s a moot point.

To be frank this is pretty embarassing in my opinion, to have two tanks that are so similar yet one is so much better than the other, for well over a year. You can draw similar conclusions from other tanks, and these discrepancies have existed in some cases for SEVERAL years (Leopard/Is4/etc lul)

Not sure why it’s so difficult to fix these issues, or at least make an effort to make some tanks more competitive. Improving a few variables takes what, 30 seconds? Not saying this would fix the problem entirely, but it would at least show an attempt.

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73 thoughts on “Data: A quick look at some serious balancing issues – T110E5 Vs Super Conqueror

  1. It’s not the fact that the T110E5 needs to be buffed, it’s the fact that the S. Conqueror has to be nerfed. We (I mean WG) don’t need to speed up gameplay even more by buffing everything again and again and again.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. All of you guys are too stupid if someone here think S. Conqueror have OP turret armor… you have to do just one thing: Load gold (APCR are better than HEAT shells) and shoot him to gun shield HIGH chance to penetration
      E5 is fine just need little bit more DPM and copula is same as gun shield on S. Conqueror you can penetrate it (primary with gold ammo but sure you can penetrate with normal shells if you have high penetration)
      E5 Copule is still hardly penetrable with normal shells
      SO STOP CRYING ABOUT THESE TANKS and aim on REAL PROBLEMS:
      OP: E3 Copule in some cases gold ammo on X tier didnt help
      WEAK: T95E6 turret armor including copule only 76mm…
      Type 5 Heavy, Type 4 Heavy with howitzer and matchmaking -2
      there is several tanks which are too OP for -2matchmaking
      STUPID MAPS: many tanks cant play at many maps because stupid map design
      many tanks cant play that maps only because arty can see them anywhere from end of map
      AND THE BIGGEST PROBLEM are ARTIES, OP accuracy, arty focus, too fast realoding and long stun, more than 1 arty per team

      Like

  2. I think you got the wrong end of the stick… the Super Conqueror is over performing & needs a bit of a nerf,
    Although they are both fairly situational tanks.
    The E5 used to be OP as hell before it got nerfed.
    There is always gonna be tanks in this game that perform badly.
    I’d personally say the AMX M4 54 was in worse shape than the current E5.

    Like

    1. actually, the case with French tanks is a bit more complicated since they require a bit more skill, yet the data seems to prove the T110E5 is in a worse situation
      last September TAP posted the data with the winrates and other stats for Tiers 8, 9 and 10, although it is not up-to-date its also unlikely that a big change as ocurred since neither the French or American tanks were updated

      pros for AMX M4 mle.54
      higher winrate: 49.11% vs 46.62%
      higher kill-per-game ratio: 0.918 vs 0.701
      higher damage-per-game ratio: 2031 vs 1578

      cons for AMX M4 mle.54
      it blocks a lower % of potential damage: 40.92% vs 41.63%
      lower spotting per game: 467.46 vs 479.49

      lets just conclude the T110E5 was overnerfed and since at WG fest they replied to questions about the T110E5 with the “d*ck move” answer «do you miss it being OP?» I doubt we will see any fix anytime soon, as for the AMX M4 its the reality of the vehicle, it was not supposed to overpower enemy tanks in the battlefield, even medium tanks, it was supposed to make use of the gun and avoid taking hits as much as possible

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I would take those stats with a grain of salt… as tanks in the game go the E5 is a very old tank, therefore a larger pool of players have access to it when you compare it to the AMX m4 54 which drag its stats down. As for more skill? I think you’re thinking of the AMX 50B because the M4 the Super Conqueror & the E5 all play the same…
        They all have 400 alpha guns the E5 has the best all round hull armour, the super Conqueror has the best DPM & turret & the M4 is the most mobile…
        the 130 on the M4 is a novelty that’s not actually worth using because of the accuracy, dpm drop & low penetration values.
        They are three very similar tanks.

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        1. E5 and M4 54 are very similar in playstyle, the difference is that E5 can actually play hulldown but not limited by it while 54 is too big and the turret is fairly weak to have a good hulldown. Super Conq on the other hand is exclusively hulldown tank, braindead playstyle. There is nothing quite like it at tier 10.

          Liked by 1 person

    2. Regardless of buff/nerf of tanks, the point is some tanks are FAR better than others.

      Super conq is one extreme, 277 and 5A same story.

      Then you have trash like IS4 and E100… just totally useless, and in some cases, there are very similar tanks that are just better (WZ 5A vs 113 is a good example, they’re very similar)

      Type 5 vs E100 same deal, both huge, slow, flat armor that is trash vs HEAT, but Type 5 just has that HE gun.

      If Type 5 had E100 gun, it would probably still be better though. Better armor and 200 more hp, not to mention Type 5 is basically impenetrable by tier 8s, whereas the E100 is a pretty easy pen for some tier 8s.

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      1. In actuality those non trash tanks have been either recently released or have been recent received buffs.

        A lot of what folks call trash tanks either did barely receive any MEANINGFUL buffs compared to competition or haven’t been touched at all in years.

        A lot of the current non trash tanks that were touched by WG magical hand IMO have been overbuffed. And should ve adjusted down again.

        Liked by 1 person

  3. Guys, you have to calm down. It was already announced on the portal that this year WG will focus on game balance and they will improve those tanks which are lacking the power to be effective in the current meta. You could ask why does it take so long and the answer is that it’s easier and faster to balance one tank than balancing a whole branch. Please be patient. 🙂

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    1. Is this the real eekeeboo? If it is, I just want to point out one thing that should be noted in thick capital letters on WG’s plans: We don’t need to buff average tanks, we need to nerf overperforming ones and buff underperforming ones. Not doing so will speed up the gameplay even more, which is a reason people quit the game. We need to try to get to the 2016 WoT. Buffing everything will get us even further away on the wrong path…

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Average? A lot of players were complaining that the aforementioned tanks, like the IS-4, E-100 and Leopard 1 are neglected by WG for a long time now and they need buffs to become competitive again. Overperforming tanks will be nerfed if the statistics are showing that they are problematic for game balance just like they were before.

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        1. Sorry for not making myself clear in the first reply. By average tanks I mean stuff like the T110E5. To me, that tank is average. It doesn’t need any buffs, only the things outperforming it need nerfs. By just buffing armor and DPM constantly, the gameplay speed will increase even more and the classic WoT feel will disappear. The IS-4, Leo and E 100 do indeed need buffs.

          Also, while talking about balance:

          Do you know how many more iterations of wheeled vehicles will appear until their stats are final. They are overperforming (at least the tier 10 one) at the moment. It breaks the feel of WoT everybody loves even more.

          How soon will these rebalance plans going to be carried out in practice? Can we expect some nerfs/buffs/MM changes in 1.5 or it’s something for even later. WG should keep in mind that MM and balance are reasons players quit the game each and every day and should be adressed as fast as possible. The same goes for arty rework, Japanese heavy rebalance and shell rebalance. These are the things that should be worked on ASAP. There are enough tanks at the moment to keep everyone happy (although I love it when any new tank appears, even if it’s some copy-pasta reskin) and also enough maps to satisfy everyone. However, there is a very beautiful map proposal on the EU forum set in a 1970s Romanian city named Arad. It is awesome and should be reviewed by the WG map team. Here’s a link to it: http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/695775-arad-%E2%80%93-a-non-corridor-city-map-proposal-with-pictures-and-minimap/ The guy that made it also has a village map proposal based in the same region which looks like it could also be a very good map, but the Arad map he proposed is a true masterpiece.

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          1. I don’t know exactly how many iterations are left for the wheeled vehicles. Everything depends on the results of the current iteration. You can always leave your thoughts on the upcoming patch in the relevant forum section.

            The big rebalances of neglected lines mentioned in the article are planned to be released sometime in the summer season because it needs a lot of internal testing due to the scale of planned changes and there are other changes in testing already.

            Currently the main aim is to test the ideas for the special shells and to finalize the MM changes which are being tested on the SEA server but that needs more time. WG has to analyse the results carefully to be sure the way it’s implemented could work on servers with bigger population too. So far the MM change results are promising but I can’t disclose a release date. I can’t say anything about a possible arty rework at this time either.

            The plans for upcoming maps of the near future are already finished and are in the pipeline. They won’t be changed unless something unfortunate happens but I will make sure that the map department knows about this suggestion as it looks interesting.

            Liked by 1 person

            1. Wow, thanks for the answer! This little comment was more informative than most official Q&As WG does! Thanks again and stay positive! WoT could easily avoid death!

              Like

            2. Given that you are an awesome staff member, I would actually like to ask you a few more questions (stuff that was talked about/shown and that you should know at least a little about) and if you are willing to answer them I would be more than happy:

              1. At WG Fest this year the T-62M model was shown? Is this something secret or it’s a T-62A replacement of some sort that was tested and shown? If it is a replacement, then will the T-62A stay in game or will it be completly removed?

              2. The same T-62M model looked like an improved physics/graphics/effects test-bed. From the very few seconds of footage that we’ve seen the changes look very good and enhancing to the game atmosphere. Is there a set date (like summer or autumn) for these changes?

              3. Are the standard customization changes (paints, camos for individual vehicle parts) planned to be extended to tiers 1-5 and 7? The game feels incomplete without this feature being functional on all vehicles.

              4. We are now getting custom numbers as inscriptions, but they are generic. Are custom fonts for each nation planned for the future (like red with white outlines for Germany)?

              5. I realised that a very unique customization feature could be added to the Russian tanks based on the T-34 chassis (and T-54 chassis aswell). I’m talking about the ability to decide what kind of roadwheels your tank has. Look at the suspension of this T-34 to get an idea on what I’m talking about: https://erenow.net/ww/tigers-of-the-deaths-head/tigers-of-the-deaths-head.files/image065.jpg
              As a bonus, maybe such wheels could be rewarded for missions or stuff like this (just like camos). A rare wheel could be the simple Panther tank roadwheel: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KuCtFx6M5LM/Uew2HJZz9QI/AAAAAAAAA_M/7dGeueM7FoE/s1600/T-34-panther-close.jpg
              Could you please pass this idea on to your superiors?

              6. Regarding the upcoming Swedish medium tanks, will they start from tier 8 to 10 or will they be a completly new branch from tier 2 to 10 with a link from the Leo into the tier 8?

              7. Are there any more branches planned for this year than the Swedish MTs announced at WG Fest (yes or no, I know that if it’s a secret it’s a secret).

              8. During the rebalance of underpowered (and overpowered) branches, will we get tech tree changes besides stat changes (i.e. new links, new filler tanks, moving tanks up/down a tier or removal of some tanks)?

              Thanks for being so open to discussions!

              Like

              1. 1. and 2.: Can’t comment on these. 🙂

                3.: Sooner or later they will be avaiable on all tiers.

                4.: In the future more fonts will be avaiable.

                5.: There are no plans for this currently. I will forward it but no promises.

                6.: There is no decision yet, depends on how many vehicles do the devs find suitable.

                7.: A few surprises will be coming, keep your eyes open on the portal for more news. 😉

                8.: There is always a chance that the devs will move or replace vehicles if they deem it fitting. I can’t share more information about this yet.

                There is no need to thank me. I’m just doing my job. 🙂

                Liked by 1 person

            3. Will there be an effort to remove the Soviet propaganda from the game? Plenty of people find it offensive and it kind of shits on everyone who died in the name of communisms agendas. Holodomor comes to mind. I mean, if one kind of massmurdering nationstate isn’t okay to put into the game in generals, neither should another massmurdering nationstate that killed more people in general.

              People should learn what was done under the hammer and sickle banner, both the mass executions, deportations, religious persecutions and the killing of civil liberties, the fact that Wargaming advertises the Soviet union with stuff like “Glory to the Soviet tanker” plastered on their tanks, is offensive to the ones who lived in the countries that they forcefully occupied for several decades.

              Perhaps one should send a soviet flag covered in dogshit to the Wargaming Offices.

              Like

    2. yes mate yas !!!
      thats exactly what they said about 2018 in 2017….”this year is the year of rebalances !! ”
      and what we got???
      268-4??
      430U ??? almost 0 weakpoints ??? COMPLETELY THWOR TO JUNKYARD THE 121 ???

      GREAT FKIN BALANCE !!

      BUFFING ALL RUSKIS ??? IS7? 260?? Almost without weakpoints now??? that imbecile 279e with exactly 0 weakpoints now??

      GREAT FKIN BALANCE ! ( for p2w gold of course ! ) but…FUCK GOLD AND P2W !

      Liked by 1 person

      1. WG please give them a couple of OP, tier X, non Soviet tanks to stop the whining! They have their movies, Hollywood, “free press”, bunch of other games where Russians are villans and where Rambo kills 1000 Rusdians by himself. One game where Russians excel (268 V4, 430U) and it’s unbearable for those spoiled brats.

        Like

    3. and also what means to make them competitive again for WG??
      making them WITHOUT FKING WEAKPOINTS FOR STANDARD AMMO??? TO FORCE MORE GOLD SPAM?? AND THEY CAL THIS BALANCED>??

      excuse me …thats a spit on a shit not a balance on a tank.

      Liked by 1 person

  4. I don’t think you’re really correct when you say the T110E5 and Super Conqueror have the same role – the higher speed, better hull armor, and less gun depression make the E5 more of a mobile brawler than a hull down heavy. Of course, that means the E5 is really competing against even more OP tanks like the Obj 277 and WZ-111 5A

    Like

  5. What is special about that? There are so many examples like that and it is like that since a very long time. What difference will make such article? WG is not interessted in it at all.One of the reasons why lots of players get disapointed over some period of time.

    You could also make an article about the new campaign reward which is just extreme good as the combination of armor (hull is strong + comes with autobounce angles), mobility, gun is just way too good.

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    1. The special thing about that specific case is that the T110E5 used to be completely OP. But then it was nerfed for being too good, the main issue with it at the time being the armor. So they gave it back the super-weak cupola. Then the SuperConq came in, it had even better dpm than the T110E5 and not only was the cupola really strong it was also way smaller than the E5’s meaning even if you fire gold you can easily bounce or miss whereas the E5 was an easy target.

      TLDR they nerfed the T110E5 for being too strong armor wise, then added the SConq which had an even stronger armor profile yet also better gun stats.

      Like

  6. it’s pretty simple, the US Tech Tree is too “old”, it has been years since it has been reworked or at least rebalanced to keep up with the meta, especially after the inclusion of even more heavily armored tanks:
    Japanese heavies
    German Maus line
    new Soviet heavies, TDs and even heavily armored Tier 9 and 10 mediums
    even the Polish heavies

    Like

      1. as you probably know we cannot compare tanks based on which has the thinner side armor, we have to compare them on a head-on scenario, and since up to Tier 7 things are mostly OK we have to compare from Tier 8 onwards
        in that case I believe they modeled the Polish heavies to have the feature of being heavily armored from the front, that’s why I wrote that, also, I did not specifically wrote «heavily armored Polish tanks», I purposedly wrote «EVEN the Polish heavies» which means that even not being all-around heavily armored they still have heavy armor where it counts
        in fact only the standard Tier 8 heavy has weak frontal armor on the hull

        Like

  7. Did you just got a bad game in your E5 thanks to a sconq? sounds like it. because E5 is not the only one that has everything worse compared to similar tanks. theyre just outdated, just wait unitl “someday” they get updated, rumours of T-62A getting “Updated” by most likely being replaced with T-62M (because of last WG videos showing the tank in tech tree) just like they did with FV215b, FV215b (183), Foch 155, FV4202, etc

    Like

    1. T-62M (Ob’yekt 166M) (1983)
      Kind of weird that they would add a tankmodel from 1983 to the game just for one nation in particular.

      If they do that, they might aswell add the Leopard 2 Prototype from the same year, or atleast the upgraded leopards from the 70s.

      Like

  8. really…how can you expect something else from WG..
    they are very well known for their incompetence in balance…really…how can you expect something else..?

    pathetic comoany self called F2P but focused on P2W
    yes, because any inbalance like this is created to spend free xp or more gold ammo wich translates in…money !

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Tbh, the cupola buff was a mistake. WG even said it was stronger then planned. But it took then over a year to fix it. It was kinda like the Maus “mistake”. Tho that was fixed faster. I suspect WG would have done something regardless. But maybe not that harsh if no one whined.

      Like

  9. The game doesn’t need stronger top tier tanks… it need stronger low tier tanks and small nerf-adjustments to the strongets top tier tanks – Suddenly it will be a game of clicking fastest and driving the meta tanks even more than now (which is pretty bad)

    Like

  10. Improving it takes 5 seconds indeed. But without testing it… Well it’s why the E5 was so popular here last due to a typo mistake, and not testing it It had a stronger cupola then even the E3 or the pre nerf 268 4. But then again, having all tier X HT’s have the same stats, dpm, gun depression and armor is not gonna fix anything either tbh. US is the Jack of all trades nation. High tier UK HT’s is usually focused around the gun and turret. They should balance the E5 again based on that. Not to make it competitive or better vs what is popular at any given time. As that’s never gonna fix anything, and just push the problem over to a new tank like last time.

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  11. Literally all they have to do is nerf the handful of overpowered tier 10s and start from there, go tier to tier, its not that difficult.

    Super conq needs an armor nerf, that cupola is way too troll.

    Also no idea why it has insane dpm, but yeah.

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  12. What makes something strong at one time will look weak in the future.
    The time spent where a tank is weak has always been a problem for WG, they take millennia to update tanks and when they do they over do it or do almost nothing.

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  13. I think WG should stop wasting their time on tier 10 cancer and focus on lower tiers to give new players better gaming experience. Have you played tier 1,2,3 recently? It’s disgusting, almost completely unplayable. And it’s the first experience new players will have with the game. Tier 10 can wait.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. Yes, the Super Conq is a very great tank, but the mobility of the E5 made it so freaking great in it’s pre nerfed (cupola) state. You could hold a flank with the pre nerfed armour, and when the battle dictaded it you could relocate. The Super Conq on the other hand can sure as hell hold a flank, but then I feel it often gets irrelevant because the battle has moved.

    Like

  15. Shit like this is going on for the last 2-3 years now. WG is overbuffing tanks and letting other ones gather dust in the garage. Balance isn’t that hard. Just nerf the overperforming tanks and buff the underperforming vehicles. Most of the times it’s pretty obvious why a tank is over/underperforming. Everyone in this thread can point that out, but for some reason WG can’t. Or they just ignore facts and data. But hey, (Belo)Russians…

    Liked by 1 person

  16. @Mokoto, could TAP make a list of ALL regular tech tree tanks from tier 4 up to tier 10, that have been left either: underpowered due to ever slight increase of power creep

    A list of over performing regular tech tree tanks could also be made.

    All too often players and dev’s only talk about the higher tier stuff resulting in only the higher stuff getting looked at while lower tier content is sometimes left in original legacy states.

    Circon yesterday had a rant on stream regarding the T-34-1 (was a former fav tanks of me, till dispersion sigma got changed again in 9.6) that all such, in my words ‘uncomfortable’, tanks could be made comfortable and more competitive versus new content that has been released, by giving very minor/slight buffs to some of those vehicle characteristics.

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  17. Honestly, E5 is fine. Even in its current state the cupola is around 240mm effective at its thinnest, and that is supposed to be a weakspot. The issue here is that both Conqueror and Super Conqueror (and several other tanks) are overtuned to nonsensical levels, and a good example of how WG handles balance – from rags to riches (or the other way around) with no compromise whatsoever. This somehow tells me that there is a degree of incompetence and lack of common sense in the balancing department.

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  18. it’s funny how people claim that e5 was op before armor nerf. someone said it and everyone seems to repeat that nonsense. the e5 never was op. even before the nerf.
    super conqueror is new so of course it’s better. how is that something new? thats how free2play games work. deal with it.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. the fact that a tank is the best heavy doesn’t mean its op.
        and to compare the bobject to it… a tank that was able to win whole battles on it’s own. omg, i don’t even know what to say…

        Like

    1. Pre-nerf E5 was… well, let’s put it this way: a bit overtuned. But they nerfed it wrong. They should have left the cupola alone and give it a weak lower plate.

      Like

  19. The problem is not just the e5 vs Sup.Q, but the game meta itself. Nowadays the meta is speed, dpm and some case, armor. The russian meds are OP compare to other meds, cuz have armor, speed and dpm. Most russian and chinese heavyies are OP, because they are basically big russian meds: fast armored and have dpm. There are the couple armored heavies: maus, type5 and superQ with their superior armor. And there are the autoloaders with their speed and burst damage. The rest meds and heavies basically useless and played for lols and missions.

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  20. I didn’t like the idea that they changed the playstyle of the original Conqueror from a high-firepower support heavy to this generic slow brawler, and even glued on that extra spaced crap to make it even more indistinguishable from the super-conq. By making these generic there was no choice but to have to compete directly with the E5. So that was a lose-lose.

    Like

  21. welcome to 2019 the E5 has been left behind for a couple years now.
    I do remember when having a E5 was a gold standard and used pretty heavily in clan wars but those days have past. Not saying it was the go to but back then it had a purpose and was useful now all the new tanks blow it away

    Like

  22. think about germans you’re gonna feel better.
    IronMaskE100, SwiftScoutMaus, SteelNeckPzVII, KingOfHidingJpzE100, UnbreakableArmorLeopard1, YoloSpotterE50, LaserGunnerGrille15 🙂
    but who cares about these old losers? cyka blyat 🙂

    Like

  23. A lot of people wrote this, but lets say it again 😀
    I think that at least half of the tier 10 vehicles look bad when compared to super conq, buffing e5 to SConq levels will leave us wih one more OP tank(and if there will be OP tank lets not be the fuckin e5 again) IMHO It would be much better if v4, type5 and super conq eat a big nerf and 430u and 111-5 get some small nerf.

    Like

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