therealisnes: Interesting proposition, thanks for sharing it. Can you tell us some details about the Centurion Mk 5/1 and the CEGA/IND please? Also imagine the shitstorm if the Romanian tech tree got the Zrínyi II earlier than the Hungarians would get it. 😀
A: Thanks for the compliment! Anyhow, according to Ion Mihai Pacepa’s damning exposé, “Red Horizons: Chronicles of a Communist Spy Chief”, the Romanian government was able to obtain Western designs through various insidious manners. If you don’t know who Pacepa is, he is the highest ranking officer to ever defect from the Eastern Bloc and was a three-star general of the Securitate (essentially, the Romanian KGB). I know some Romanians that have strong negative feelings about him.
Normally, I wouldn’t give his book much thought. However, one peculiar piece of information caught my eyes. Before I elaborate on it, let me explain what the Cega/Independence (Independence was shorten to IND) is.
According to Pacepa, Romanian intelligence was able to sneakily obtain plans on a “Leopard 2”. However, the plans for the engine were too detailed and complicated to copy and manufacture. As a result, they somehow got the president of the engine manufacturer of the “Leopard 2” to help them out with their troubles. Romania built a husk of the “Leopard 2”. It was pretty much a metal husk, no engines, weaponry, etc. They eventually completed the whole thing. The name “Cega” is a mix of ‘Ce’ from Ceausescu, the Romanian communist leader at the time and ‘ga’ from Gaddafi, the Libyan dictator who was funding Romania’s tank program and whom the tank was intended for. The vehicle wasn’t intended for Romania’s national security and it wasn’t only intended for Libya. It was also an export vehicle which Romania could make a profit from so it another name which was “Independence”.
The reason why i believe this to be true is due to the fact the Cega/Independence had difficulties involving the engine which the TR-77/TR-800 (a spiritual precursor to the TR-85) as well. The TR-85 and TR-77/TR-800 had a West German MTU engine which developed 830 hp. This is very similar to the one on the Leopard 1 which also had an MTU engine. This is why I believe that the Cega/Independence was actually a Leopard 1.
About the Centurion, this may get a bit political, Romania apparently exchanged Romanian Jewish people for an Israeli Centurion and then wanted plans of the Centurion. They also considered producing the Centurion.
Even though you didn’t ask about the AMX-13, I’ll throw it in here since it’s related. The PLO supposedly gifted a tank which very much sounds like an ex-Israeli AMX-13 to the Romanians. They also considered producing it. I’m in the midst of making an article on the Cega/Independence and will be providing some speculation and skepticism.
You’re definitely right about the Zrinyi II, but I threw it in because why not. I’m happy to remove it, there are enough TD premiums already.
hall0: So tell me at what thing you are looking at.
Take the first medium line. Starting at Tier 5 and Tier 6 with another T-34 variant. But hey, they seem to have some derpgun stuff going on. I give you that. Even though HE derps are quite cancer in this game. Anyway. Going to T8. A T54/54 variant. Yeah, well no. Same with T9 and T10. Adds nothing to new or important to the game.
Next. A BMP variant. There is a reason why we haven’t seen those in the russian tree yet. Cause it does not fit. But another russian clone anyway.
Next line. This time some TDs. Not too bad. But stops at T7 ends with a paper tank. But at least no copycat stuff. The only good thing in this whole proposal.
Premium stuff. Cool another T-34 and hey a Hetzer. Oh wait there is more. A AMX13 or a Centurion or a Leopard silhouette. So yeah. Tell me what you see.
A: For me, it doesn’t matter whether it resembles another tank. It is quite hard to call the M4A3E2 and M4A3E8 a copy of each other even though they play quite different and differ in a lot of ways.
This is essentially what the TR-77-580 is. It might look like a T-54/T-55 clone, but you shouldn’t judge a book by its cover. This vehicle has a whopping 200mm of upper front hull glacis and 320mm of frontal turret armor. I know what your response is going to be, that its too much. I would agree with you, but the geometry of the vehicle isn’t like certain Soviet heavy or certain mediums like the T-22sr. You would know where to avoid shooting at and you have some weak spots like the cupola and perhaps the lower plate. In addition, the vehicle is not that mobile. With the weight of 47 tons and an engine that can output 580 hp, the power-to-weight ratio is around 12.3 hp/t which is lower than quite a bit of heavies. In addition, the TR-77-580 is armed with a measly 100mm M1977, which from I can tell is essentially a more ergonomically friendly 100mm D-10T that fired AP, HEAT-FS, and Soviet sabots.
This is a combination that hasn’t been replicated in WoT much, if at all. I will admit, that the tier 8 candidate, may perhaps be too much of a clone. I hypothesize that its essentially a gimped T-55 clone due to it only taking two years after the initiation of Romania’s tank program to construct a prototype of it. A tier 8 T-54/T-55 has already been done before. The Type 59 which is actually just a carbon copy of the Soviet T-54A works, if not fails a bit at tier 8 with it being mostly historical stat-wise.
Moving on, the BMP-1 can fit in my opinion. There’s nothing necessarily game breaking or inherently unbalanced about it. It can have the option of having ATGMs which Wargaming have been experimenting with in WoT Blitz, apparently, positive feedback.
Lastly, harp on me for the unnecessary copies, but ignore the unique premiums :p. The AMX-13 is merely a crew trainer, T-34E is actually up armored, and the Cega/Independence has little information on it to conclusively say its a clone.
leggasiini: Personally, I would probably add the T-34E into tier 5 and then uptier the tier 6 and 7, if there is no proper tier 7 candidate available.
Good thing with 15cm derps is that you can balance them on quite many tiers. You could theoretically balance it to tier 5 with reduced alpha (~600 HE) or to as high as tier 8 with very good gun stats.
A: It could work, but personally, I am confident that something exists to cover tier 7.
piromanrs: Stop any work on any tech tree until WG publishes YU tech tree, the only one worth anything 🙂 🙂 🙂
A: Better hurry up then )))
GrimmaceNA: Send this to the snail for warthunder!
A: I would but, they require, IIRC, a full SPAA line. Plus, there aren’t enough built unique vehicles to fully cover the line, at least not for now ))). Some would make awesome premiums however.
The TD line along with top tier mediums are solid and interesting enough for actual ingame “tree”.
TACAM R1 should be the tier 1.
A: WG doesn’t seem keen on making anything, but lights tier 1. If the TACAM R-1 turns out to be turreted, then I suppose it can be tier 1.
veroxgaming: I had a few questions regarding the light tank line;
1) Were there no possible candidates to fill the gap between the Tier 1 R-1 and Tier 10 MLI?
2) What would be the transition in order to get the MLI-84?
Anyways, amazing article STD, keep it up!
A: I’m sure there is. Some IFV projects were, IIRC, mentioned in “Jurnal 1978-1988” by Tiberiu S. Urdareanu, the published journal of the general who was essentially in charge of Romania’s tank development. There was also apparently a project in the 50’s to mount a 57mm ZIS-2 on a tank chassis which ended up being canceled in 1957. Unknown to whether it was some sort of light tank or airborne light tank destroyer.
On to your second question, likely the TD line since they’re likely going to be IFV based TDs.
Purecycle: This Tech tree is a 50/50. While I don’t give a damn about copy tanks as soft stats can make a vehicle feel different than it counterparts, but knowing WG and the community they won’t like it because fun is a foreign concept.
The TD branch is gold. It’s very unique but I would switch up some vehicles like swapping the R-1 and R-35 TD to keep consistency. Moving the R-2 to tier 5, giving it the 8.8 cm as it’s top gun, then putting in it’s original spot the T-38 variant and making the M-00 as a premium 122 mm Derp. (Seal clubbers will buy it in a heartbeat.)
But I have two questions to ask. Would it be okay if Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Romania share the same tech tree? Maybe throw in old Hungary in there too? And finally, will you do an article on those T-34E variants you have on the medium branch? they look interesting.
A: I made the TACAM R-1 a premium/gift tank since the Vanatorul de Care R35 was a built and serviced vehicle. If a TACAM R-2 with an 8,8cm design even existed other than it just being a proposal, I’d imagine it would look rather different than the regular TACAM R-2.
Personally, I don’t really agree with combining nations together, though if it happens, it happens. There is not much to say about the T-34E variants other than efforts were made to mount a 12cm or 15cm gun on a broken down T-34 and a T-34E. It was concluded that a special new shorter recoil cylinder was needed and a new turret. How far this project went is left to be known.
Mao (@Baby_Nom): 1. As far as I know the R-1 had machineguns, not even powerful ones like the low tier tanks in game.
2. The R-2 is a Škoda LT vz. 35. Nothing new but I agree that it could appear in a romanian tech tree.
3. The Renault R35 is also right to be in the tech tree. But why is it a tier 3? The one we have in game is tier 2.
4. R-3 is a czech S-II-c or T-21 which is inferior to the T-38 or LT vz. 38 (which is a tier 3). And you have the R-3 at tier 4 😐
5. T-34E (=ekranami=armor plates) is a normal T-34 with a bit more armor. It should be alright at tier 5 and I guess 12cm and 15 cm are the thickness of the plates… So at tier 6 you have the exact same tank just with 3cm more armor. Really?
6. And now for the high tier MTs. While I do agree that TR-77-580 is a valid option for tier 10 (or even tier 9) what in the world are the other two? Prototypes? I’m waiting for more information about them, please. Otherwise, you can downtier the 580 and introduce TR-800 at tier 10.
7. MLI-84 is a bigger BMP-1 with a powerful engine. What’s this thing doing in the tech tree? Too modern. Too powerful for the game.
8. R35 VdC
9 TACAM T-60 was armed with a soviet gun: 76,2 mm F-22 L/51 model 1936. It’s right to be a tier 3 because it would be similar to the gun of the Marder II and III (a little worse than that actually).
10. TACAM R-2 has the same gun (ZiS-3) as SU-76M (tier 3). Why is it a tier higher?
11. Maresal M-00 is the first prototype of the Maresal TD. It was armed with a russian 122 mm howitzer: 122 mm howitzer M1910/30. So a derp at tier 5. Maybe you also want to fit some conventional gun there for research purpose. It’s plausible I guess, even if the Hetzer (the german equivalent) sits at tier 4. Oh and… M-00 had an open top and back.
12. Maresal M-04 (which is actually the real Hetzer equivalent) mounted the 75 mm Reșița Model 1943 (which was using elements of ZiS-3 and PaK 40). It could work at a tier 6 but I fear it will be underpowered.
13. Maresal M-05 has the same gun as M-04 but changes the suspension. It’s being built on the chasis of LT vz. 38.
14. Maresal at tier 7 is bullshit. It can’t go against most of the well armored tier 8 tanks, not to mention tier 9s HELL, it will struggle with tier 7 HTs.
15. TAA is a glass cannon and I have no idea why you think it would fit at tier 10. Tier 8 maybe.
16. Premium Hetzer? Romanian never operated Hetzers. Better go for a premium Stug. We had access to those.
17. TACAM 8.8 cm? Have you been drinking a lot lately?
18. T-34E STZ is the same as the one in the tech tree…
19. AMX 13… WTF?! Bullshit.
20. Centurion: MAJOR BULLSHIT. We had no deals with the brits or anyone operating those tanks.
21. What, in the name of… STD is Cega/Ind?
Overall: It’s bullshit. But I am waiting for articles where you will show your findings and try to justify this hilarious tech tree proposal.
Suggestion: Use Pz. III, Pz. IV, Stug., SU-76 and Hummel as premium vehicles.
A: I numbered your question to make it easier for the reader to follow.
1. That is true and if it turns out to be to weak, there are other candidates such as a plain old Renault FT with or with Kégresse tracks (single piece rubber tracks which increased the speed from 6 km/h to 12 km/h). Another alternative is the American Disston tractor tank, but Romania never ended up obtaining them. More information on the tank itself can be found here and what it has to do with Romania.
2. It is nothing new, I agree. At least it looked somewhat different and relatively iconic.
3. The Carul de Lupta R35 carries upgrades such as the possibilities to mount a T-26 turret with its 45mm 20K or 47mm Schneider Model 1936. You can read more about here.
4. The reason why the R-3 is at tier 4 is because the ST vz. 39 is at tier 4 and due to the fact that there are no other real options that aren’t copies. The R-3 is similar stat-wise compared to the ST vz. 39 which is no surprise since the T-21 (what the R-3 would be based on) is a competitor to the ST vz 39. The Pz. IV (T-4), specifically the ausf. F variant could be a possible candidate and it differs to the other Pz. IVs somewhat. The only issue is whether they received the F2 variant, the one armed with the 75mm L/43.
5. 12cm and 15cm aren’t a reference to the thickness of the plates. Around early 1943, they had two T-34s. A regular, but broken down T-34 and an up-armored working T-34 weighing 32 tons, likely a T-34E (which I likely have a photograph of). A 12cm and 15cm gun, likely howitzers, were proposed for the T-34s, but it it was eventually concluded it was not possible since a special new short recoil cylinder was needed. This might not sound like much, but its possible some sketches and perhaps blueprints exist of it. Source: “Armata Română Şi Evoluția Armei Tancuri. Documente (1919 – 1945)”, Document No. 39
6. The tier 8 candidate was made in 1974 and was “the first experimental model”. I hypothesize that this is probably a gimped T-55 clone. The tier 9 candidate is referenced a couple of times in “Jurnal 1978-1978“, the published journal of General Tiberiu S. Urdareanu, and some other sources. This tank was referred to as “Romanian tank” was made circa 1976 and it seems like an early related precursor of the TR-77-580. The tank was compared to the T-55 in a couple of military exercises in late 1978 while the TR-77-580 was being built. Depending on the real life stats, I think it could be a tier 9 candidate. Lastly, I presume you are referring to the TR-85-800 or TR-85? I don’t think its necessary. If the need of a mobile TR-77-580 is necessary, a candidate does exist. The experimental sister of the “Romanian Tank” referred to as TR-77, TR-800, and TR-77/TR-800 exists. General Urdareanu showed it off in 1978. It’s also mentioned in seemingly accurate CIA documents and documents from archives of the Romanian Communist Party. The TR-77/TR-800 seems to have been built in relatively few numbers in the early 80’s. The image below is most likely the produced version of it. Fun fact, that turret may have been also used for a short time on the TR-77-580 during late in construction or after and hypothetically, the “Romanian tank”, but removed thus reducing the weight by 1.7 tons. The TR-85 or TR-85-800 is likely a refined version of the TR-77/TR-800.
7. MLI-84 is a slightly modified copy, but what the hell. Personally, I think the BMP-1 can fit and its not that advanced if at all. If WG wants accurate stats based on primary sources on the MLI-84, they know who to contact ;).
10. The TACAM R-2 is at tier 4 due to the fact that the 75mm M1943 was proposed for it. The 75mm M1943 and ZIS-3 use the exact same carriage so I assume that transferring it to a self propelled gun would be the same if not very similar.
11. M-00 is not the only candidate, there are of course the M-01, M-02, and M-03. The reason why it only says M-00 is to due to oversight.
12. Personally, I think the M-04 will fit fine due to its size, mobility, and firepower. I think you are underestimating the 75mm M1943 and I’ll explain why in a bit.
13. I don’t mean to be pedantic, but it was not directly built on the chassis of the T-38/Pz. 38t. It was actually its own chassis based off the T-38/Pz. 38t. The M-05 is quite a bit slower and bigger. Though, it probably has superior horizontal and vertical gun traversal.
14. Oh boy, been waiting to respond to this one. Yes, it might be insane at first, but I think you’ll understand where I’m coming from after this. You’ll probably still disagree, but at least know the logic behind it. The “Maresal Production Series” as I like to call it, is a theoretical what if. It is a “what if”, but not to a huge extent. The Hotchkiss plant was bombed to hell by this time and already taken by the Allies. As a result, the Romanians got access to the Jagdpanzer 38(t)’s 160hp Praga engine. Then, if Romania and Germany were able to agree on the proposed joint Jagdpanzer 38(t)/Maresal production program, they would be able to get access to a 220hp diesel engine. This engine is likely a Tatra engine the Germans have been wanting to install on the Jagdpanzer 38(t). The Jagdpanzer 38D had a 220hp Tatra engine, though it was designed a couple months later after the end of the Maresal program and the Jagdpanzer 38 Starr also had a Tatra engine, but I’m not too sure about its horsepower output. I’ve been doing a lot of research on the 75mm M1943 and I’m somewhat convinced that it has similar or perhaps superior penetrative performance to the German 7,5cm kwk 42 L/70. The barrel is significantly shorter than the kwk 42 L/70, but barrel size isn’t a primary factor in shell velocity and penetrative performance. The UK’s 17 pounder is an L/55 that has similar penetrative performance to the kwk 42 L/70 of around 190mm at 100 meters. One of the reasons why the 17 pounder was able to reach such performances was likely due to the fact that it lacked HE filler. “Third Axis, Fourth Ally” by Mark Axworthy claims that the shell was a combination of the Pak 40 and the 75mm Vickers AA gun manufactured by Costinescu. “Artileria Romana in Date si Imagini” further specifies that the round was a combination of the Pak 40/kwk 42 L/70’s Pzgr40 APCR shell and the casing from the 75mm Vickers AA gun. This would make some sense actually. It also explains why the gun was able to reach a muzzle velocity of the 1030 m/s. However, there is something off. The “Costinescu” AP shell weighs 6.6 kg which is 2 kg lower than the Pak 40/kwk 42 L/70’s 6.8 kg Pzgr39 APCBC shell and 1.4 kg higher than the Pzgr40 APCR round. So is the Costinescu AP shell based on the Pzgr39 or Pzgr40? Or are do both types exist and stats are being conflated between the two? Was the Pzgr39 shell turned into a solid shot for the Costinescu AP shell like the 17 pounder? These are questions I hope to answer soon. Lastly, according to “Third Axis, Fourth Ally” again, the first 200 production Maresals were going to be based off the M-05 prototype while the later 800 were to use lessons learned from the M-06, the unbuilt prototype, and Series 0. The M-06 was to have a crew of 3 instead of 2. So, having the “Maresal Production Series” be based off the M-06 is not a bad idea, if the design is ever found. The crew would increase from 2 to 3 as a result. Considering all of this, this could perhaps fit at tier 7 filling the role of the E 25, perhaps with less rate of fire and significantly higher penetration while having similar mobility and a small stature. This isn’t the most ideal tank destroyer at tier 7, but personally I think it could work. This tank destroyer will probably end up being replaced by a Romanian Cold War tank destroyer or self propelled gun.
15. Personally, I think it works fine at tier 10. It might not have the most hull armor, but I think the combination of the autoloader, really thin turret, and seemingly thick mantlet would make it work. Link here to the article if you aren’t fully aware of the existence of the real design.
16. Romania actually did capture and use two Jagdpanzer 38(t)s along with a Zrinyi II around October-September, 1944 in Transylvania. However, that is besides the point. The Jagdpanzer 38(t) in the tech tree was suppose to represent a hypothetical Romanian built Jagdpanzer 38(t), like Heavy Tank No. 6, the hypothetical Japanese Tiger. Romania obtained a license shortly after obtaining the license of the Jagdpanzer 38(t)’s 160hp Praga engine. I’m more than happy to not include it.
17. TACAM R-2 was proposed with a 8,8cm gun, likely a 8,8cm flak L/56 which Romania had a couple. Whether it stayed as a proposal or a design exists, is left to be known.
18. It’s the up armored T-34 which Romania captured. Nothing much else to say other than it’s different than the two in the tech tree. Here is probably a photograph it.
19, 20, 21: You can read the synopsis about them in my response to therealsnes’ (first question).
The Romanian Pz. III N under the designation T-3 could be a somewhat unique premium, the rest seem a bit copy pasty, though they are still possible candidates.
marlekin: Best not let Drummond see this
A: I encourage him to see my proposal. Lets see if he can take me on :D.
TheFineGuy: I don’t really understand why all people get so angry at tech tree proposals. Especially the ones for the countries that didn’t really have a tank production industry. Chill out, m8s, it is just a “proposal”. No one said that exactly this will be the tech tree or if this will be added in the game in some form. This is just an answer to the “What if…?” question, Jesus. So stop all the bullshit like “Let’s make a Brazilian tree then” or “This was not announced” or “Italy, Switzerland and Hungary were announced by WG so this tree is useless”. Who the fuck said anything about Italy or Hungary? What does it matter if those were or were not announced? Can’t a man show how *he* thinks the Romanian tree would look like? Jeezus Feking Crist. It is like watching little 7 year old children arguing whose father is better: “My father is a builder and he will destroy your house” and then “My father is a police man and he can shot you”.
Now, on to the tree. Even if all what I have wrote above must be considered, I think it was not a good idea to post the picture, the proposal, without bringing more information about each and every tank that you have put right there. Even if people should not act like this tech tree would kill their mother, I don’t think it was a good idea to show it. Moreover, I don’t really understand why the Zrinyi is there. It doesn’t make any sense. It is useless and it should have never been there.
However, I was very surprised to see something like this and I have many questions. I have never imagined to see a Maresal at tier 6, but at tier 7… How can this be accomplished? Then, what exactly are the tier 8 and the tier 9 mediums (1974 TR, 1976 TR) ? I don’t think I have ever heard about them. The tier 10 it is better known in comparison. And then, why the hell is a Centurion in the tree and what the hell is a CEGA???
A: If a nation is able to develop a tech tree, I’m totally for it. Even if a sizable bit are copies, I’m for it. My intention for showing my proposal prematurely was for people to ask questions and I would answer them. A sizable amount of the article was going to be about explaining the more peculiar aspects of the proposal, but I felt it would make a clunky article and just made it into a Q&A. I really want to make articles on each of these tanks, but I’m waiting for information on them.
The Zrinyi II is there due to Romania capturing and using one. There is a photograph of it below. Definitely not necessary, but I threw it in nonetheless and happy to leave it out. Let me just state that I don’t have a bias against Hungary nor am I pro-Romanian. I understand that Hungarians and Romanians don’t get along, but don’t take the Romanian Zrinyi II as any offense. If the shoe was on the foot, I personally wouldn’t care. Hopefully, Karika (check out his Straussler MBT article) finds more vehicles to complete his Hungarian tech tree.
I think everyone underestimates the Maresal, due to their size, mobility, and firepower, I think they can fit at those tiers.
For the last portion of your question, I give really long explanations of the Maresals, 1974 TR, and 1976 TR in my response to Mao (above this segment) and long explanations of the Centurion and “Cega” in my response to therealisnes.
Atlascyberlink: If we want the Romanian Tanks in the game, we have to make a little “laughing” to take into account the Romanian tunics before the Hungarian tanks
wolfsrain: Gonna point a few things:Maresal TD shouldn’t be higher than tier V, indeed.
During interwar era and WWII most of the romanian tanks were FT17, CKD AH-IV (R1) and Pzkpfw 35t (R2). Added to those were: Panzer III (up to the N variant, various variants), Panzer IV (up to the J variant, various variants), Pzkpfw 38t.
Captured tanks: T26, BT5, BT7, a few T34 (confiscated by the german army), 1 Zryni (ONE)
Right after war, romanian army received from the soviets some captured german equipment: Panzer IV (various variants), Panthers (about 10, various variants), 1 Brummbar (ONE), various other captured german tanks.
In late ’40’s, Romania started to receive soviet equipment T34 (various variants) and su100
In the 50’s Romania gets the T55
In the ’70’s the T55 goes through the modernization process, the prototypes being designated as TR77 and the series model being named TR580. Before that, Romania received 6 T54A tanks for testing.
TR85 and TR85M1 are further modernizations of the old T55
In the eighties Romania buys around 30 T72 and design a prototype based on them P125 (or TR125, as it appeared in some documents).
As TD goes, there were Stug III, StuH 42, the TACAM series, Maresal (6 known prototypes, confiscated by the soviet army) and on paper the TACAM T-38, Su76, Su85, Su100 in the post-WWII era
As you can see, most of the romanian tanks were foreign equipment (bought or captured), with very few own designs (not the lack of ideas was the cause of that, but the lack of resources and the corruption that swallowed Romania in the inter-war era and later).
Sure. You can do a tech tree with that (you can put T54A at tier 8 and T55 at tier 9, with tier X having T-580). But…the fact that there will be a ton of new clones remains.
I could dig some more information, but to be honest, i am too damn lazy to do it:)
P.S. Romania also had SU-122 (unknown variants, sources are scarce about this one) and ISU-152 in the Cold War era.
There were also a few captured Hummels in the late ’40’s, given by the soviet army.
And sorry for the complete lack of structure. Using my memory here.
A: I don’t mean to be rude, but did you look at the proposal? I wasn’t aware about the T-54A, StuH 42, SU-122, and the Brummbar. May I request a citation?
Most equipment that is known were bought. Though, it is heavily hinted that Romania developed a decent amount of equipment. The latest discovery being the TAA (link here).