Because of various technical problems, as well as some incoming holidays, the next article (so, about the tier IX tanks) will most likely not be posted before July 28th or July 29th. Thanks for understanding, and bonne lecture !
Click here to see the part 0 – Introduction
This post deals with the following tanks :
- AMX 50 B
- Batignolles-Châtillon 25t
- AMX 30 B
- AMX 50 Foch (155)
- Batignolles-Châtillon 155 58
Note : giving many times the same hypertext link from one source for a tank will be avoided, even if it’s used several times. So, keep them open while reading !
AMX 50 B
1) Top speed
As we can see here, here and here (photographs from Châtellerault archives by AutoChenille) on a notice from 1959 about the AMX 50 B, the top speed is 51 km/h. However, it’s intended with an engine of 850 hp, and it was planned to equip the tank with an engine of 1.200 hp, which would have theoretically allowed to reach a top speed of 65 km/h (see here, here and here). However, this engine was never developed. So, if you’re a purist, there is a nerf of the vehicle’s top speed, from 65 km/h to 51 km/h. If you however are more tolerant, there are then no changes.
Whether on the plan from 1953, or on the instructions from 1959, or on different sites previously given, we can see that the weight of the AMX 50 B is 57,8 tonnes. So the weight should then be decreased from 62,2 tonnes to 57,8 tonnes.
Note : this implies a nerf of the ramming ability, but a buff of the acceleration.
3) Hull’s armour
According to the plan from 1953, the front armour is 80 mm thick (nominal thickness) maximum and 30 mm thick minimum, equivalent to 200 mm of effective armour thanks to the angle. The rear and the sides are 30 mm thick (nominal thickness). According to the notice from 1959, there is frontally an armour thickness of 60 mm at the tip with a 64° angle, equivalent to 190 mm of effective armour, and 30 mm for the rear and sides (with an angle of 50 ° to the rear).
If the informations for the side and rear armour are matching, here is however a problem about the frontal armor. Indeed, in view of the plan from 1953, the maximum frontal armour thickness is located at the tip. But on the plan, it says 80 mm, and in the notice, it says 60 mm. A simple trigonometric calculation tells us that 60 mm at 64° is equivalent to 137 mm of effective armour, while 80 mm at 64° is equivalent to 182 mm of effective armour. However, the notice informs us about 190 mm of effective armour, and the plan mentions an effective armour of 200 mm. The data “80 mm” seems more plausible than the “60 mm” one. In the end, the hull’s armour should be nerfed from 170/30/30 (mm) to 80/30/30 (mm).
4) Turret’s armour
The manual from 1959 gives an armour thickness of 85 mm with an angle of 55° as well as 40 mm for side and rear. However, again (see Hull’s armour), the information from the frontal armour of the turret seems to be wrong because it gives an effective armour thickness of 148 mm, not really close from 190-200 mm. Here is a notice for the AMX 50 100 and this is a zoom on the armour values. As we can see, the frontal armour of the AMX 50 100 has an effective thickness of 200 mm, exactly what we want. However, a recent modelling (which seems realistic) of this turret on the Somua SM by WG gives this. Since the AMX 50 100 and the AMX 50 B have a quite similar mass (53,7 t against 57,8 t) and an almost identical hull armour, it seems acceptable to give their turrets these very same armour values (and armour’s spread). So, the turret’s armour should be buffed from 100/50/30 (mm) to 200/40/40 (mm). A little detail though, the name of the turret would be more correct if would be “TOB-120” or “AMX 50 Type D”.
Although it’s a tier X, it could be interesting to propose the “Maybach HL 295” engine, which appears on every data sources. It’s also possible to add the engine “Saurer” 1000 hp engine, although it was abandoned in 1952 because it was considered unreliable compared to the German Maybach engine. Then, it’s again a question of purism (see Top speed) about the 1.200 hp engine that never really existed. If you’re a purist, then it’s possible to remove the “Maybach HL 295 F” and to nerf the engine’s power from 1.200 to 1.000. If you however are more tolerant, there are then no changes.
First, something about the name of this gun. “120 mm SA 46” is never mentioned in the archives of Châtellerault. At best (name found by Dante66680 and his comrades), this gun is called “120 mm D.1203”. Now, there are two “versions” of this gun : without a muzzle brake (on the AMX AC mle. 46, the AMX AC mle. 48 and the AMX 65T for example), and with a muzzle brake (on the various AMX 50 120 and on the l’AMX 50 Foch). To differentiate the two versions in the game, the gun of the AMX-50 B could be renamed “120 mm D.1203F” (“F” for “Frein de bouche” (TN : Muzzle brake)).
Then, this gun is a copy from Le Havre’s workshops of the US 120mm M58 gun, with which it shares the same shells (known to the French as “obus de rupture mle. 1950” and “obus à charge creuse mle. 1950”. However, as we can see from this table, this gun can penetrate with the “standard” ammunition (APCBC-T) 221 mm (914 m, 30° ), 196 mm (1829 m, 30° ), 124 mm (914 m, 60° ) and 114 mm (1829 m, 60° ), which is roughly equal to (possible error of 2% maximum) 272 mm (100 m, 0° ). So the standard shell’s penetration should be buffed from 257 mm to [266-278] mm. In addition, the “premium” shell should be HEAT and not APCR. According to the table, the shell penetrates 330 mm (30° ) and 191 mm (60°), which is equivalent to 380 mm (0° ). Because of the general nerf imposed to the recent HEAT shells by WG (of about 40 mm), penetration of HEAT rounds becomes 340 mm. There is therefore a buff of the premium shell’s penetration (which becomes a HEAT shell) from 325 mm to 340 mm.
Moreover, as it can be seen in the notice from 1959 or in the plan from 1953, the AMX 50 B has a ammo capacity of 46 rounds, and not 56 rounds. So we have a nerf of the number of rounds, from 56 to 46. In addition, as it can be seen on the plan from 1953 and in the notice from 1959, the vertical elevation is -8 ° / + 14 °. There should then be a buff of the vertical angles, from -8°/+12° to -8°/+14°.
Finally, the biggest problem comes from its clip. Indeed, here the concept in real life. As we can see, it normally has… 19 shells ! This would mean in game 7600 damage… so we have several options :
- Either we’re completely purist and the AMX 50 B is given a 19 rounds drum. However, this doesn’t seem acceptable at all for balance (completly useless for 2-3 minutes, then invulnerable in 1 VS 1 until all the 19 rounds are shot).
- We can also be tolerant by considering a half-drum model (9 shells/drum) or a third-drum model (6 rounds /drum). Nevertheless, with such a setup, the vehicle may be very powerful, if not even too powerful for tier X.
- Either we take an alternative solution : to forget the drum on that tank and instead to install a quick semi-automatic reloading system, which would imitate more or less the drum. Therefore, the tank would have a DPM greater than the average of the its (3000 HP/min, so 8 seconds to reload) but would then lose its drum. This solution would make it remain at tier X.
- Other ?
It’s just a detail, but the “SCR 528F” radio would be more appropriate than the “SCR 619” radio
One more detail but there are two versions of the AMX 50 B : with an oscillating turret, and with a “classic” turret. To avoid confusion if the classic version is added, it would be convenient to rename the AMX 50 B to “AMX 50 TOB” ( “TO” for “Tourelle Oscillante” (TN : oscillating turret)).
About the drum, according to Teckyota, the 3rd option would be the best mixture between gameplay and history. If we take that choice and that we keep the “Maybach HL 295F” engine (and therefore the top of 65 km/h), the various changes seem to compensate enough to keep the AMX 50 B as tier X .
A notice of Batignolles-Châtillon 25t : here and here (photographs from the Châtellerault’s archives by AutoChenille) indicates there are 4 crew members (a driver, a commander, and two gunners/loaders). The char-français.net website confirms the number of crew member. There is then a change in the crew setup : [commander (radio operator) + gunner + driver + loader] or [commander + gunner + driver + loader (radio operator)], not knowing who has the role of radio operator (definitely not the driver nor the gunner, at least).
2) Hull’s armour
The notice (which remains the main source, since there’s nothing better) indicates a frontal armour ranging from 30 mm minimum to 50 mm maximum, with 25 mm of side armour and and 20 mm of rear armour. Some websites claim a 80 mm frontal armor but this value isn’t confirmed. The hull’s armour should then be nerfed, from 60/40/30 (mm) to 50/25/20 (mm).
The notice indicates a “modern 3M.27.1.01” engine developing 500 hp. The Truck & Tanks Special Edition No. 13 magazine specifies that it’s a SOFAM engine. The “Hispano-Suiza HS110” engine should then be removed, and the “SOFAM 3M.27.1.01” engine added. In other words, that means an engine power’s nerf, from 720 hp to 500 hp.
Note : the power-to-weight ratio is then nerfed from 29,4 ch/t to 19,6 ch/t, an important nerf.
The notice and the char-français.net website indicates a 90 mm gun with a V0 ranging from 930 m/s to 1000 m/s. The magazine Truck & Tanks Special Edition No. 13 specifies that it was planned at the beginning of the project, in 1948, to equip it with the “75 mm SA 50” gun (page 6). There is therefore the removal of the “105 mm mle.57 (D.1504)” gun, as well as the “100 mm SA 47.”
In addition, although the “90 mm F3” gun has a good initial shell speed between 930 m/s and 1000 m/s (950 m/s, to be accurate), it’s a gun from 1962-1963, while the B-C 25t is from 1948-1957 (start and end dates of its project). There is thus the removal of the “90 mm F3” gun.
Then, still according to the TnT HS n°13 magazine, the “75 mm SA 50” gun can be added. However, this gun requires some changes about its penetration values.
First, as this table shows, the POT mle. 51 (type APC) shell penetrates 130 mm at 1000 m. Furthermore, firing tests in Mailly (which is a military base) indicate 110 mm penetrated at 1500 m. Compared with penetration values of the German 7,5 cm KwK 42 gun (here), on which the CN-75-50 is based, it can be concluded thanks to a cross-multiplication that the shell’s penetration is 156 mm (possible mistake of 3%) at 100 m at 0°. As a result, the standard shell’s penetration can be buffed from 144 mm to 156 mm.
Then, the table gives a penetration of 200 mm at 1000 m for the PCOT mle. 51 (APCBC) shell. Tests in Mailly indicate 170 mm of penetration at 1500 m. By a similar method, it can be concluded that the shell’s penetration is (possible error of about 2%) 240 mm at 100 m at 0°. This gives the premium shell’s penetration buff, from 202 mm to 240 mm.
Then, about the 90 mm gun with a V0 between 930 m/s and 1000 m/s, the only candidate which Teckyota knows is the “90mm DCA 45” gun, with a V0 of 1000 m/s. Indeed, if one measures the barrel length’s on this plan, one notices that it measures about 5.8 meters. Yet, the 90 mm DCA 45 measuring 5.85 meters, the length mentionned before also seems to fit. Moreover, it has no problem with the dates. So the “90 mm DCA 45” gun should be added.
About this gun, it penetrates with its APCBC ammunition (unknown name) 150 mm at 1000 m at 0° (source here). If this penetration value is compared with the one from the German 8,8 cm KwK 43 gun (here) which are quite similar, we can conclude thanks to a cross-multiplication that the penetration of this shell is 205 mm (unknown error). There is therefore a nerf of the standard shell’s penetration, from 212 mm to 205 mm.
In addition, the manual indicates, for the 90 mm gun, an ammunition stock of 52 rounds. So the maximum round capacity should be buffed from 30 to 52.
Finally, regarding the drum : as it can be seen on a photograph of the turret from above, there is no reload hatch on the top, which means that the turret is based on the model of the first AMX 50, and not on the AMX 13’s one. In that case, the drum consists of 6 rounds (detailed explanations will be given next week (TN : in the next article, at least) with the AMX-50 120). So no changes here.
After the changes, we can note that the Batignolles-Châtillon 25T looks similar, on paper, to the Batignolles-Châtillon 25t AP that WG tries to implant in the game. However, according to Teckyota, such nerfs about the armour, mobility and the armement make it so that the Batignolles-Châtillon 25t should be downgraded from tier X to tier VIII. Located for example between the AMX 13 75 and the AMX30, it could be a very good transition. As for the Batignolles-Châtillon AP 25t, it has no reason to live since its exterior design is a fake.
AMX 30 B
As it can be particularly seen on Wikipedia.fr and Wikipedia.en, the AMX 30 B’s engine delivers 680 hp. The engine which delivers 720 hp is the HS-110-2, which equips the AMX 30 B2, which is too recent to fit into WoT. There is therefore an engine power’s nerf about the “Hispano-Suiza HS-110” engine, from 720 hp to 680 hp.
First, as chars-français.net and Wikipedia.fr indicate, the number of carried shells is 47 (19 in the turret + 28 in the hull). The ammo rack should then be nerfed, with the maximum amount of round changing from 50 rounds to 47 rounds.
Then, according to Wikipedia.fr, Wikipedia.en and tanks-encyclopedia.com, and this table, the OCC 105-F1 (HEAT) shell penetrates 400 mm at 0°. As the table proves, it’s the best penetration of all 100-105 mm guns of the time. But in the game, it has the worst penetration of all modern medium tanks having a 100-105mm gun (320 mm against 330 mm for the T-62A, the Object 430, the Object 140, the Leopard 1, the M60, the M48 Patton, the Centurion Action X and the STB-1).
From another angle, the T-62A, Object 430 and Object 140 have had their HEAT shell’s penetration nerfed by 50 mm (they decreased from 380 mm (IRL) to 330 mm (IG)) ; Leopard 1 tanks, M60 Patton, M48 Patton, Centurion Action X and STB-1 saw their HEAT shell’s penetration nerfed by 20 mm (they decreased from 350 mm (IRL) to 330 mm (IG)).
If the French gun is given a nerf by 50 mm (like by Russian vehicles), it reaches a penetration of 350 mm.
This implies a buff of the premium shell’s penetration, from 320 mm to 350 mm.
Moreover, it would be more logical if the standard shell, which is a completly made-up shell to alleviate the problem of kinetic energy penetrator (APFSDS), from the AMX 30 B penetrates better than its competitors. This implies a penetration buff of the standard shell, from 260 mm to 268 mm.
Just a detail, but the name of the best radio from the AMX 30 B is “TR-VP 113” and not “TRVP-13-A”.
The slight mobility nerf being compensated by a slight firepower buff, the AMX 30 B can stay at tier X.
AMX 50 Foch (155)
The discussion here may be very short since there is, to our knowledge, absolutely no evidence about the existence of such a project. Therefore, since WoT remains a game with a historical basis, the AMX 50 Foch (155) should then be removed from the tree.
Batignolles-Châtillon 155 58
According to chars-français.net, the vehicle’s weight is 34,3 tonnes. So its weight should be decreased from 35 tonnes vehicle to 34,3 tonnes.
Note : this implies a nerf of the ram ability, but a buff to its acceleration.
According to char-français.net, there are 6 crew members. This implies a change about the number of crew members to the (speculative) following setup : [commander + radio operator + driver + gunner + 2 loaders].
As this instruction from Hispano-Suiza indicate, the HS-110 engine is largely ulterior to the Batignolles-Châtillon 155 mle. 58. As such, it’s not possible that it could have equipped this vehicle. This then implies the removal of “Hispano-Suiza HS-110” engine.
This is speculation without evidence, but in regards of the project’s date and the shape of the vehicle, it is likely that this vehicle would equipped with the same engine as the Batignolles-Châtillon 25t : the “SOFAM 3M.27.1.01”. So the “SOFAM 3M.27.1.01” should then be added, and the engine power nerfed from 720 hp to 500 hp.
Although no irrefutable evidence is currently known, this photograph (taken at Châtellerault’s archives by AutoChenille) from inside the turret of the model of Batignolles-Châtillon 155 mle. 58 makes Teckyota thinks that there is no drum loader.
Therefore, the 4 rounds drum loader on the B-C 155 58 should then be deleted, and that the tank should have instead a classic semi-automatic loading system with a reload time of about 24 seconds (which would retain his current DPM).
Although the tank undergoes a significant mobility nerf, the Batignolles-Châtillon 155 mle. 58 remains in tier X. If necessary, its softs stats (accuracy, aim time, ground resistance, etc…) could be slightly buffed, in order to compensate the mobility nerf.
Quote of the week : “One tank lost, 10 found back” (Un char de perdu, 10 de retrouvés)