Hello Commanders,
From words—to deeds!
Today we’re starting work on one of the hottest and the most discussed issues among those mentioned at WG Fest 2018: the overall 25–30% drop in damage for special rounds. We want to make the shell choice more thoughtful in every battle situation and lower the damage special rounds deal (especially against well-armored spots).
It should be noted: this is the very first testing iteration aimed at general evaluation of our hypothesis described above. For now, it’s merely a rebalance of special shells’ damage, without any adjustments to their cost.
We’ll conduct the Supertest with a limited selection of vehicles (a bit more than 30) to check:
- the viability of the idea and the impact of its implementation on the game;
- the effect of lowering the special shells’ damage has on the total damage dealt;
- the overall combat efficiency of the vehicles involved in testing.
The decision to decrease special rounds’ damage isn’t set in stone as it’s still in development, so it may change significantly. After the first testing run, we’ll decide what to do next: we may change the amount of damage we slash off the special rounds, fine-tune the stats of individual vehicles, or enlarge the pool of tanks in the Supertest to gather even more data.
Of course, we’ll take into consideration your feedback on the proposed changes.
We intentionally selected very different vehicles for the testing pool—for the most efficient tracking of the impact the rebalance will have on battle stats. For some vehicles having APCRs as their basic rounds, we substituted these with AP shots of the same speed. Likewise, for the vehicles with AP rounds as their specials, we replaced these with APCRs. We’ll track the distribution of damage done per shell type, the changes in vehicles’ battle stats with regard to their class and role, and lots of other parameters.
| Vehicle | Gun | Old Damage | New Damage |
| IS-3 | 122mm BL-9 | 390 | 290 |
| T-44 | 100mm LB-1 | 250 | 190 |
| IS-7 | 130mm S-70 | 490 | 360 |
| KV-5 | 107mm ZiS-6M | 300 | 225 |
| KV-2 | 152mm M-10 | 700 | 500 |
| Object 268 | 152mm M64 | 750 | 530 |
| IS-4 | 122mm M62-T2 | 440 | 320 |
| T100LT | 100mm T 100 | 300 | 225 |
| Obj. 430U | 122mm M62-T2 | 440 | 320 |
| Tiger II | 105mm KwK46-L68 | 320 | 240 |
| Ferdinand | 128mm 44-L55 | 490 | 360 |
| Maus | 128mm Kw.K 44 L/55 | 490 | 360 |
| Jagdtiger | 128mm PaK 44 L/66 | 560 | 410 |
| E-100 | 150mm Kw.K 44 L/38 | 750 | 530 |
| Panther II | 88mm Kw.K L/100 | 240 | 180 |
| JagdPz E100 | 180mm PaK K/72 | 1050 | 735 |
| Leopard 1 | 105mm L7A3 | 390 | 290 |
| Pershing | 90mm T15E2M2 | 240 | 180 |
| T57 Heavy | 120mm T179 | 400 | 300 |
| T110E4 | 155mm T7E2 | 750 | 530 |
| T110E3 | 155mm T7E2 | 750 | 530 |
| T69 | 90mm T178 | 240 | 180 |
| T49 | 152mm M81 | 700 | 500 |
| M48A5 Patton | 105mm M68 | 390 | 290 |
| AMX 13 90 | 90mm F3M | 240 | 180 |
| Bat.Chatillon 25t | 105mm mle. 57 | 390 | 290 |
| AMX AC Mle1948 | 120mm AC SA46 | 400 | 300 |
| Tortoise | 120mm AT L1A1 | 400 | 300 |
| Super Conqueror | 120mm L1A1 | 400 | 300 |
| Badger | 123mm OQF Mk. 1 | 480 | 350 |
| TVP T50/51 | 10mm AK1 | 320 | 240 |
| Progetto M40/65 | Cannone 105/51 M68 | 360 | 270 |
| WZ111 1G FT | 130mm 59-130JG FT | 560 | 410 |
| Type 5 Heavy | 150mm/45 41st year | 1400 | 750 |
A few questions we hope to get answers for after the test
- How much shall the special rounds’ damage (especially against well-armored targets) drop? This is one of the key areas the players on heavily armored vehicles asked us to address.
- How shall the damage be re-distributed between the two other shell types? Our aim is to reduce the special rounds damage (against well-armored targets in particular). Thus the overall damage of other shell types could grow; we want to check whether it’s true during the test. We’ll monitor these parameters and modify them if needed.
- How shall the share of HE shell damage change? Currently, the total share of HE damage is small, and we don’t intend to change it. Overall, the combined special HE shell damage is mostly dealt by the Type 4 Heavy and the Type 5 Heavy tanks (we adjusted some stats of both of these for the test). The special round for the Type 5 Heavy will be substituted with a HESH with an alpha of 750 points and a penetration of 193 mm. During the tests, we’ll thoroughly monitor the changes in HE shells usage after the special rounds rebalance.
- How shall the rebalance affect the battle performance of individual vehicles? We know that currently certain tanks are played with a greater-than-average special to non-special rounds ratio, to increase their efficiency. So we want to assess how these vehicles’ performance changes.
The test is just starting, and your feedback will help us make correct decisions. Let us know what you think, and we’ll consider it while working on the adjustments for the next iteration.
Follow the news and good luck in the battlefield!
OMG, let the whining begin…
Yes yes, let the tears rain >:D
The only thing I take offense at is giving the Type 4/5s HESH though. No no no no no fuck no.
I mean if they do that, what was the point of changing it at all? 1400 prem HE that can splash any heavy armor for 500+ damage. Oh well, lets get rid of that and give it HESH with 193 pen so it can FULL HE pen sides for 750 damage! Nice meme Wargaming.
Everything else is fine.
Yeah well, if you get flanked by a type 5 you sort of deserve it.
So instead of a pure ptw shell, type 5 now have to give some thought about whether to use the 1k splash or a 750 hesh that they have to roll the dice on. It’s a good change. It’s not like the ammo change is instant, so some tactical thinking is necessary. For lightly armored ranks this is a huge change. There will be more chances to actually flank types now.
I guess this means FV hesh will receive the same treatment. That is also a good change, as it will move them toward a decision between AP Hesh and HE, where previous there was no reason to consider HE.
I use HE all the time in my tanks. Its the difference between being a Gold spam noob and aiming worth a darn. Especially my T-34-3. Super Pershings hate me in my T-34-3 :3 HE don’t care about your armor.
Seems like u and I are the rare breed in this madness world of gold spamming tanks 😉
E-100 has a 750 Alpha with 263 Pen. Why are you complaining about 193 pen with the same alpha?
Because the E100 is AP and the new Type 5 is HESH that will deal damage even if it doesn’t pen.
How long u was playing Wot? E100 with 265 pen when where how?
263? it has 246 AP pen, before that it had 235 AP pen. HE Pen is about 93.
i disagree with you. i play the heavy tanks where when type 5/4s flank me, they pen me for 1400 anyway. 75 pen is too much. i would rather be hit for 750 than 1400… the HESH is not a problem, as this tank is most likely going to meet other heavies, and because it is HESH, its only like 175mm pen against any angle, it can barely pen a TVP, maybe. if this HESH doesnt pen, what does it hit you for? 200-400? i love it. better than being hit for 500-620.
if type5 would hit you in the face (driving e-100) gold ammo would splash 750~ it as insanely anoying… Splash from turret onto the hull roof pretty much. So the hesh seems fair.
Because then it at least won’t be able to one shot kill tier 8 meds or even tier X lights. So that’s better already.
Sounds good.
Special shells? What is that? Is it the P2W shells they are talking about?
Special shells is just Gold ammo. they just wanna call them Special Ammo from now on
After all, the politically correct term for retarded children is “special children”, so calling something as retarded as WoT’s premium ammo “special shells” sounds about right…
i love your take on this lmfao
Good, especially type 4/5 changes.
those tanks are so broken.
Naah, i think my Type 4/5 would be happy about some love and buffs – faster reload, better accuracy and it should turn around quicker.. so three to five times faster..and could u give em the same power to weight-ratio of the new Panhard EBR?! Imagine this… awww… 😀
Types are broken mainly to the bots. Basic T10 autoloader 4-5k damage game needs quite good game with Type (and most like city map). I fear these changes will be major buff to tanks with impenetrable turrets, some of which are quite OP already (tip: russian tanks).
Great news for tier 8 tanks with not even 200 pene AP.
lol so true… rip my beloved T69 even more
Maybe they will notice its not that good without HEAT, so theyll buff it.. Atleast I hope so.
Just finished 3 marking it with almost full AP, had only 2 clips of HEAT for tier 9 and 10 superheavys.. 😀
I believe most players are missing one important point, yes there are some reasons to believe it will encourage the use of even more gold ammo BUT does it not help with the complaint on how unskilled players rely on gold ammo nullifying the efforts of those who try to play the game to the best of their habilities?
I think it’s a good move since those using standard ammo will be less afected, their survivability will definitly increase since the trade off for damage will mean they can kill the enemy quicker (under certain conditions, such as not beint a 1 or 2 shot kill) than the enemy can kill them
What are you getting at? How do poor players nullify the efforts of better players? On the contrary, a lot of them will still spam ‘gold’ ammo resulting in less damage. In the end, they only hurt their performance as they do less damage and their targets survive for longer. Better players will still use a lot of ‘gold’ ammo for frontal engagements but I am sure that ‘full-apcr/heat’ setups will be a thing of the past, because they will usually try to flank the enemy so they can use standard rounds for full damage (that’s what I’d do). The thing that’s important here is that in the current 3-5-7 MM the bottom 7 usually have to spam a lot of ‘gold’ ammo to deal with the top 8. It’s obvious that these changes screw the bottom 7 (by a lot in some cases) as they will now need to spam a lot more to be as effective as before while they die as fast as before. Not sure if this is intended but tiers 6 to 8 will be getting screwed big time. A MM rework needs to happen at the same time as these ammo changes.
“poor” players?
I commented on “unskilled” (aka noobs) and players trying to play the game correctly, I did not mention being poor or rich or whatever, that has nothing to do with it
think about it:
currently when 2 players meet and are both 2/3 shot kills to each other you can simply shoot gold ammo and win even if you are unskilled
after rebalance a average skill player in the same situation will still be able to defeat the noob “buying skill” because he has the advantage in DPM, isn’t it better than the current situation?
if you read it carefully you would have noticed I’m only commenting regarding the ammo rebalance, that is at least a good start, it will of course require that the changes to the MM and vehicle rebalance complement that change BUT you will still have more chances against gold spam after the rebalance
By “poor” I mean of poor skills not of low income 😋. When two players meet, the better one should win, of course it will be better than what we have now where everyone can press 22 and do well, the thing is, for most of those “unskilled” nothing will change, they will continue to spam gold because they have no knowledge of weakspots and thus get worse in the long run. In my opinion, confrontations like the one you describe are much more than simply loading gold (unless it’s noob-vs-noob). I don’t disagree with you I just didn’t understand your first question. It won’t matter if people spam more gold ammo because it will do less damage instead of being a straight penetration upgrade (in some cases). My comments about the MM were an afterthought/realization because I still think they should fix the MM first, tweak (read: nerf) armor next and finally deal with the gold ammo, not the other way around! This will probably exaggerate the problem of some heavies.
«they will continue to spam gold because they have no knowledge of weakspots and thus get worse in the long run»
it’s true but you have to take into consideration one single factor, most of those players do not wish to improve and for that reason rebalancing the gold ammo will somewhat level the playfield, but, as I wrote and as you also mentioned before, simply rebalancing the gold ammo will not be enough since other actions will be needed to complement that change, however it is still a good starting point
NOTE: more and more I support the +/-1 MM, it is so damn obvious how it’s much easier to rebalance single tier differences as compared to 2 tier differences, that would also make it easier for them to fix the MM, and I agree with the need to rebalance the tanks and the rework of the MM to come before the gold ammo rebalance, however that takes much, much longer than ammo rebalance
It’s the beginning of the end
Ok, that’s step 1. But we’re not done yet, step 2 is going to be reducing the price of these shells accordingly. And step 3 is giving the fatties some frontal weakspots. Idiot-proof armor was the source of this whole problem.
No weakspots are coming because “the superheavies are balanced and not overperforming”.
Supertest. SMH. It seems they haven’t learned that letting 45%ers test your game leads to crap balance. Should be Sandbox/Common Test instead. That said, I’m kindof amazed by their speed with this, can’t wait.
They were working on it since patch 1.0.1 so it isn’t really fast to be honest.
Oh…now that makes sense.Thanks, Dimon.
thats a very VERY good start !
BUT…
all this means exactly nothing if the PRICES are not lowered to standard ammo value too
tanks need WEAKPOINTS
and some pen values must be lowered too…because one of the main problems with this ammo is that completely IGNORES ARMOR. Simply too much pen.
and something worries me..
T49 152mm M81 700 500
since when T49 with durp has a premium penetrating ammo??
Indirect buff to all heavys. Tanks with low pen are screwed. They will not make them cheaper witch means WG wins. More credits spent, more profit for them from gold and premium accounts. 😀
Armored Warfare had that model but the high pen shells did not cost more then the regular. But I guess we will see WG greediness again.
GG
Is AW still alive?
you, uninformed people, are the worst.. they said the rebalance of armor will come to with changes
You honestly think WG is going to rebalance some 500 tanks overnight? That they actually going to nerf the armor of all the premium tanks in the game? That even if they did so they would get everything perfect and not absolutely destroy the balance of the game?
You are the uninformed my man, they aren’t changing armour.
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/693605-what%E2%80%99s-coming-in-2019/page__st__580__pid__16468975#entry16468975
And for AW it showed that most would rather run then do bad trades with the 2nd ammo. Always fun to have a push, then the old X1 came and half your support ran away as they did not want to get a damage reduction vs that alpha and high pen gun.
This gives ALL and Heavily Armoured Vehicles in the game like super Heavies (Type 4 & 5) a big Buff to there performance
Whilst screwing over badly all those Vehicles 2 tiers lower with the Shit +-2 Template MM
So … before you cheer Wargame
Until they Nerf ALL Heavy Armoured Vehicles hopefully AT THE SAME time as the “Special shells” get nerfs
)) all this does otherwise is INCREASE Gold shell Spam you will just simply need more of them & will not stop the Gold spam
solution in real life?
nerf the armour on Heavy Armoured Vehicles and give then back real weak spots, bring Skill back into the game
otherwise
Its another ‘fuck up’ disaster badly thought out by the turds at WG
Exept some broken tanks like obj 257, what other tanks do you have problem to pen them?
Type 5, Maus, 268v4, Badger, E100, JPE100, T100E3 – and that’s just the tier 10’s.
Lol, you really have more 2 learn in this game.
Badger has a large lower plate weakspot. Same goes for E100. E3 goes 20 and has no turret, I think it can have OP frontal armor. And it clearly isn’t helping much, E3 is a pathetic piece of shit.
all these tanks can be cheesed with 250mm pen. only the e3 is debatable, given they have a brain
So now instead of having to spam 8 gold rounds to kill a Type5 you’ll need 12 or 15.
Still just as pay2win. Except now you need to pay even more.
Just remove this ammo altogether or make it cheap so it becomes a normal ammo to choose and not an instant pen for people who can afford it.
My greatest amusement is how the Dingers are crying right now!
My Greatest amusement here is how all Robopon EVER does is Troll most people that starts a thread ~ Sarcasm is the standard reply of sad people without a real life
I’m sorry about your mother, it’s a great loss.
lmao dude, why is everyone always so ma at you all the time
First they should to rebalance armor. With this tanks like Type 5,Type 4.SC, IS7,Maus will be super OP especially type 5 and maus cuz very high HP they will be unstopable.
meh, 250mm is enough to have a 60% chance at going through the cupola on the type5. 250 is fine. maybe make it 240. before you cry about nerfing all armor, remember these tanks are also getting ammo nerfs. the type 5 is loosing the 1,400 alpha shell for balically 175 pen HE
hahah are you fcking serious that spot on the commander hatch is wide like 10 cm rest is 260 up to 400 mm. Good luck hiting that 10cm. Even Heat strugle to pen that commander hatch. I have Type 5 and i can say with ammo nerf without armor nerf that tank will be super OP.
Rubicon 2.0 here we come, a change that was never needed that’s very likely going to break the game. Armoured tanks are already OP did they need this no. Yet zero word on the massive needs heavies are going to need.
Good changes. Special ammo will be cheaper, so maybe even f2p dudes can afford to use them.
Funny to see how people cry about superheavies, yet only super heavy that is broken is type 5 with the stupid ammo. And that will be changed. Fast heviums rule the game in tier 10, superheavies are easy to evade and especially when you can soon blacklist shitty maps like Ensk and Paris.
Armored tanks like e-100 will soon have a meaning again.
A Gold ammo rebalance is the only way i will ever make it back to this game.
GG WG now just make it good
Re-balancing tanks and sorting the matchmaker should be the first priority. Messing with the ammo, needed or otherwise, is going to make those problems even worse. Supertesters were responsible for the Defender etc. Cl*sterf*ck incoming.
My man! Exactly the same thoughts!
Reporting live from WoT Express comment section, people are PISSED about these changes. RU players response to this overall is very much negative. They may get their hands on torches and pitchforks soon.
gold ammo of su100y & isu 130 = lower penet than standar AP but with bigger damage…. so what about them?? and the gold ammo for LT 432 its very suxxx…….. 🙁
light tanks shouldn’t get an alpha reduction, or maximum 10%. their pen is garbage already, they deserve full damage.
thanks to this new premium ammo rebalance, the MM should be 1-3-11/1-4-10/2-4-8 and mostly +1-1.
otherwise, the +2 stock grinds will literally be impossible. +2 tier games will be even more torture unless the heavies have smaller HP pools or weakspots, or there are very few of them
Such incredible bob players here.
7 Years ago wo were grinding without any gold ammo at all with a +5 MM
STOP this nonsense of pure noobness.
If they go ahead with this I will quit the game, and leave the rest of you to ping ammo off OP Super Heavies and TDs. And watch WG burn as they have a 268v4 problem across their entire tech tree and all tiers.
The good news is that in my country digital goods are treated the same as physical goods. And those have a 2 year warranty. If they change my premium tanks I get to ask for a exact replacement of the same tank I bought, or a full refund. If WG refuse that refund, it is illegal and they are subject to $10000 fine for each breach.
How dare they sell me a tank, and then make that tank USLESS after they have taken my money. Most of those tanks I NEVER would have bought if I knew they were going to ruin the game with this ammo nerf idea.
This will go VERY VERY bad for WG. They will end considering this idea the biggest mistake they ever made
Well, WG said that it’s not a nerf for premium tanks, because all other tanks are receiving the same treatment, it’s a change of one of fhe game’s core mechanic. Don’t be a fucking cunt.
Guys like you are keeping WG from creating a balanced game. OP tanks should be nerfed, even if they are premiums. UP tanks should be buffed, premium or non premium. Don’t keep them from balancing the game with “I want my money back”.
From someone that barely uses prem ammo at the moment: Bring on the nerfs, bitches!
This is when you tell us that this will work wonders for the IS-6 or KV-5 with their 186 pen vs 220mm “weakspot” tier 8 HT’s right? As without balancing other aspects when most tier 8 HT’s have an 8% chance to pen the VK 100.01’s cupola. This won’t fix jack shit. And we start the circle anew with the whining about armor we had 2 years ago.
try entering into battles with no gold ammo in your loadout.
1) you learn weak spots very fast (because you couldn’t be bothered before 2 key much easier).
2) you learn HE is your friend.
3) you learn you can rely on teammates when you 2).
4) you learn after repeating a pattern so many times that the coding in the game attempts to “balance” teams as much as possible, one of these tools is rng, at some 25%.
*spoiler, some more intelligent players will identify patterns faster than others. Some have 50,000 battles and still believe in “random”. These players also have more posts in forums, than actual battles.
Beware: their goto rebuttal involves tinfoil, since 2011, through all the meta changes.
Very little actual skill has been left for individual player influence into the game, knowledge is power, all the safe areas to camp from SPG’s, where the invisible huge hitting TD’s will be camped, and all firing angles that you and your team need to cover to maximize map dominance.
Airfield is a classic example, everyone knows exactly where they can fire from to get their angles of cover. That is why it is SO CAMPY, and SO LONG overdue for rework. Many maps are.
My T49, Type 5 HT, 183 derp guns all do very low damage rolls, no matter where I shoot etc, “balance *4”, so I only fire the cheaper ammo out of them in most cases anyway. Cheap or the gold, I roll the same damage.
I would like to see:
-live full time anti cheat program
-SPG NUMBERS PER TEAM reduced to maximum of ONE, WG might agree to two.
-spotting mechanics rework, LTs at high tiers are losing so much xp to mediums.
-TD rework…has noone noticed how OP the 268-4 line is these days, from about tier 6-7 up, and the armour on the front of many others is OP too, or the invisibility cloaks are just too much, SU130PM as example has ruined any enjoyment of tier 8 as much as a defender, creating MORE camping, less TANKING!. At least in the “balancing” of the coding the MM tries put so many IS3 clones vs eachother (defender, IS3, 112, alpine tiger, IS5, IS3A, 252U etc).
-crew skills rework. These days with players running around in autoloaders at 60-70kph with 5-7 skill crews, taking less than a 3 skill crew into a “random” team really handicaps your team.
-option to block xvm from reading your account. We all know that many xvm users take the information provided by xvm and use it to an advantage, that players without xvm don’t have. CC’s should play vanilla and set better examples for their peers.
-option to remove beta tester badge from IGN in team lists. Sure WG keep it on my account, display it in garage whatever, just not in battles please for any old SPG player to read.
When WG increased the rng to 25%, and actual skill was far reduced in the game, was when a lot of the unicum players abandoned ship, many simply haven’t come back. But all forums screamed for better balance in teams and we had the great 15-4 outcome issue for several years, it seems to be extremely hard for WG to develop the game to the correct balance. RNG just feels like I’m playing dungeons and dragons and rolling a d20, HIT, roll a d8, ohhhh 0 dmg pen, (because was shooting at a russian).
We currently HAVE +1mm active on SEA servers, however many battles are complete steamrolls with 15-2 outcomes, atm. +2mm still exists, but is much rarer. These battles are preferable to +2mm especially the disparity that exists between tier 8 vs tier 10. Panther 88, I’m looking at you, long have we both suffered.
Absolutely STUPID … Dumbing-Down for whiney gamers and stupid kids … Anyone who crewed a real tank KNOWS what the ammo-model should be … The wiser solution here would have been a Limited Load-Out, though Blackhorse would support the model put forth by taugrim on the WOT forum
They should make the damage according the armor you hit. If you have too much pen you do less damage no matter what ammo you use.
So no armored vehicles will do low damages and receive higher ones… interesting.
I have the unfelicity of having a Grille 15, Wargaming pushed that piece of shit over me.
So everytime I shoot a Type five I bounce, no matter if I shoot regular AP or that shit HEAT with only 334mm of pen. A TD with zero armor have absolutly one of the worse pen of all. And have ridiculous bad shell velocity with Gold (HEAT).
Obj 268 V4 has 260mm of gold pen flyeing at 950m/s same than its AP that has 293mm of pen.
Grille 15 has 334mm of gold pen flyeing at 900m/s and an AP that fies at 1200 and has 279mm of pen.
So Grille 15 has less armor, less pen, less engine power and worse gun handling. Infinite worsly gun handling.
This is the sense of balancing this kind of people has. It is a real joke. Obj 268 moves faster backwards than Grille 15.
They launched the OP Obj 268V4 after having nerfed Grille 15. Really I can’t understand these people. They simple do not play the shit they set: it is a fact period.
Nerfing damage is OK, but make ‘special’ ammo a tactical choice and not an economical one. Special ammo should cost the same as normal ammo.
And rebalance tanks with heavy armor. Reintroduce weakspots in general. Without that, nothing will improve.
This is effectively giving the type5 30% more Hp while also giving every tank that faces it a 30% dpm nerf. Meanwhile the type5 will just spam it’s regular 1100 HE which is hardly worse than it’s current prem.
Just fucking remove the types already
They should play German vehicles, specially TDs.
How the idiots nerf the damage of a shit like Jagdtiger that can be penned in its upper hull by tier VIII mediuns.
They should think that what they called high armored TD of germany is really high armored.
My god, can’t belive that.
More than 1 year ago I suggested this very simple concept to balance the extra pen with less damage. Fucking lazy WG cunts banned me from chat for insulting cheater and locked my account for rightfully cancelling payments for goods with intentionally hidden flaws.
Now the retards finally start to do something about the easiest balance concept.