Hungarian Tech Tree Proposal

A reader named Krisztián Bíbor emailed us. He made this proposal:

Hello everyone!

I spent my last few months researching the Hungarian army from the interwar period to the early Cold War. I was working on creating a tree that is actually feasible and can make its way into the game. This proposal presents the result of my work.
Special thanks to u/Karosi16 for helping me modelling the wheeled vehicles.

A little history

Hungary started developing tanks in 1934 (V-3). The first vehicle that saw service was the V-4, and it was in 1937. In the pre-war period, Hungary joined the Axis Powers. Mass-production of the Csaba armored cars, the Toldi light tanks, and Turán medium tanks started in 1938 based on the modified license of the L-60 and the T-21, in this order. During the war, the Royal Army used the upgraded variants of these vehicles with more powerful armament and thickened armor. They also made several turretless tank destroyers based on the outdated Toldi and Turán tanks. The next new vehicle was designed in 1943, as the engineers had been allowed to study the Panzer V. The new tank was designated as the Tas, but the two prototypes got destroyed by a bomber in the summer of 1944, just before the turrets could be fitted. After the war, Hungary was occupied by the Soviet Union and the government created the Hungarian People’s Army which was armed by Soviet tanks, such as the IS-2, IS-3, T-54, T-55, or later, after the Revolution of 1956, the T-72. Information about post-war or Cold War tanks is lacking, but there is small to no chance that there were any vehicles developed independently by Hungary. The only blueprint I found was this in a Czech forum:

The potential Hungarian Tech Tree. I have marked the tanks that WG already has information about with an orange tick.

Frequently Asked Questions

Toldi III in Tier IV?

I know, the Toldi III is already in the game as a T3 German Premium Light. It is just so underpowered that nobody wants to play the vehicle. But historically, the Toldi III could easily cope with most of the T4 light tanks. The 40 mm gun with 64 mm penetration is better than ~70% of all Tier IV light tank guns. Although, the rate of fire and gun handling, by all means, should be buffed to the BT-7’s level.

Turán III in Tier VI?

The Tier V German Gift medium is the prototype version of the Turán III. As for its 75 mm long-barrelled gun, it wouldn’t be underpowered, more than 80% of all T6 meds has 76 mm or lower caliber gun. A little characteristics spoiler: https://i.imgur.com/2QMaoYs.png 🙂

Tas in Tier VIII?

In Karika’s tree (historian, he has found the Straussler MBT in the archives of the Bovington Tank Museum), the Tas Prototype is at T6. However, in our proposal, the Turán III is the Tier 6 medium. So the original Tas (Karika’s Tier 7) will be our T7 Prototype. The Tier VIII won’t be the Tas ‘Production’, as it would be weak tier-to-tier. Our T8 is the Korbuly-variant Tas, mentioned in the book ‘Harckocsik és páncélozott járművek típuskönyve’, ISBN 963-326-283-6.

This model of the Tas was basically reconstructed by Pál Korbuly after the war (the son of the Tas’s lead developer János Korbuly), based on oral historical sources. It would use the planned licence-produced 8,8 cm KwK gun from the Panther, as it could have been able to fit into that turret (here are all the historical guns used by Hungary, Name/Caliber/Shell velocity/Rate of fire/Calculated in-game alpha damage/Historical penetration at 100m).

Plus, the completion of the medium branch otherwise would be impossible.

Historical Accuracy?

I made a chart comparing all tech tree tanks’ historical authenticity. Note that not all the information is accurate, please correct me if I was wrong. If anyone is interested in an actual comprehensive article about the tanks, I highly recommend Marisa Duchêne’s (French historian) article in English, or Hebime’s writing in Hungarian (or you can use Google Translate). About the vehicles that were not mentioned in these articles, I can share pictures and blueprints that I have or other separate writings. I also have Tankopedia-style td, medium, and wheeled tank historical descriptions with a full-size vehicle preview.

Thank you for reading!

47 thoughts on “Hungarian Tech Tree Proposal

  1. Thanks, btw translation (from Czech)

    1st Figure: “After-WW2 hungarian project of medium tank. According to czechoslovak archives, developed in 1948. Only one model was build, but USSR forced hungarian ministry of defence to stop further development”

    So yeah, at least according to Czech archives, this is original hungarian design and it had even one model build

    2nd figure: “Two variants of project 47M – gun mount of 85/88 mm and 100mm automatic cannons”

    So even two different gun options, both with autoloader

    1. Thanks for the translation!

      Note that the blueprint isn’t an original engineering drawing, probably just a recreation from most likely one of Martin Dubánek’s books for illustrational purposes only.

      There are quite a few problems with that, we don’t even know what’s the books name it is scanned from, Hungary didn’t even have any autoloaders by 1948 and it is unlikely that the Czechs would have sold any blueprints, not to mention that Kozár’s name is only mentioned on the bottom drawing.

      The turret ring had to be completely round (something like the T-55’s), as the rotating system is at the very rear of the turret ring, so it wouldn’t be able to traverse if it had an oval shape like on the illustration at the top.
      https://i.imgur.com/3RAW0pB.png

      This is how the turret had to look like if it was really built and meant to be rotatable.
      https://i.imgur.com/UP5cyYy.png

      So most likely Kozár’s turret drawings are original, but the upper sketch just not representing the turret correctly (and it probably isn’t by Kozár). Anyway, there are way more fictitious vehicles in the game, so this vehicle is just as fine as the T 51 or the E-50.

  2. This, the Swiss tech tree, and the expanded Czech tree all deserve to be in the game so very much. thank you for your hard work and research

  3. Excellent work, you should just get hired by WG immediately! I’m sure you have already done more research with this proposal than WG ever did in the last 3 or 4 years at least. Also it is impressive that Hungary had this many vehicles in service, but still not in the game, while other nations with mostly fictional models already made their way into Wot… Btw do you have more info about the T8 medium? I’ve already seen an article about the Tas on ftr but nothing about that model. Keep up the brilliant work, I hope we can see this tree in Wot asap!!

    1. I really appreciate it!

      The Korbuly-variant Tas was reconstructed in the ’80s. Pál Korbuly was the son of the lead developer of the Tas, and the project wasn’t really known by the time, so he asked all the workers who were invented in the development of the vehicle, and reconstructed its model.

      There aren’t any official pictures of the prototype of the Tas, but by now, we know for sure how they originally looked like.

      Pictures of the original steel mockup Tas that was sent to the Ministry of Defence in 1943.
      https://i.imgur.com/A0oe7fh.jpg

      Back to Pál Korbuly’s Tas, it is meant to represent the same vehicle as the original Tas, but as it was only based on oral historical sources, it wasn’t totally accurate.

      Pictures of Korbuly’s Tas mockup with the widened turret.
      https://imgur.com/a/NsjLUOn

      I wouldn’t say it is fake, it is really far from that. The situation is just the same for the Czechoslovakian Tier IX. It isn’t dreamed-up by WG, it is just a fallacious model made a long time ago by a historian based on reliable but outdated sources, not like Konghong’s Chinese TD branch, or the high-tier Italian mediums.
      And I hope so that we can see something new soon.

    1. Impressive work, thanks for sharing! Everything looks pretty official.
      Although what do you mean that WG has info about those specific vehicles?

      1. There is a private Facebook group on that topic.
        Quite a few months ago, to be fair nearly a year ago we contacted Wargaming. They said that:

        “We already started researching Hungarian vehicles, but a potential tree is currently not a priority. The models we collected information until 2015 are the following (our data is incomplete):*

        Light: FT, Toldi, Toldi IIa, V-4, 39M/40M Csaba

        Medium: Turán I, Turán II, Turán III Prototípus, Turán III, Tas Prototípus, Tas

        Tank destroyer: Toldi Páncélvadász, Zrínyi I, Zrínyi II, Tas Rohamlöveg*

        Spaag: Nimród, Nimród 80 mm (Szebeny-variant)

        *Tas Rohamlöveg: by Pál Korbuly, Jarosław Janas and Á. Bíró – There is no direct evidence of the project. The assumption was made by the son (Pál Korbuly) of the lead developer (János Korbuly) for of the manufacturer (Weiss Manfréd) in the late 80’s. The base of the theory was the 2 prototype suspensions of the Tas, jumping to the conclusion that the second one was for a TD. This was later debunked, as army officials actually ordered two full prototypes of the Tas. There is a small chance that it existed, but we acknowledge it.”

        As they said, their database about the vehicles are incomplete, and since 2015, it has probably been updated. Mainly that’s all the informant was allowed to say. They also mentioned that they have found three more unknown models in other nations’ archives, but they won’t share anything about them besides that they aren’t suitable for top-tiers, because they financed the research, so it is their property.

  4. This an amazing proposal almost everything is well thought out! It even looks very official! Although quick thing about you historical credibility charts. The grille 15 is of course a real project but as you know the L/63 variant in game supposedly is fake, well apparently, Zinoviy Alexeev, a russian WoT proposer found a blueprint of it here: https://m.vk.com/wall-166534011_4783 .
    Next The regular T28’s new model is also called fake, which Is not the case, it was a proposed early version of the tank, which can be found here: http://otm-uswot.blogspot.com/2018/04/t28-prototype.html?m=1
    And a few quick tidbits, The Chinese T34 tanks haven’t been confirmed nor denied, also The top tier Chinese light are Real and fake their designs were real, but heavily modified to become the top tier Light tanks, so they are more Wg modified than fake, the 53tp is also very dubious, so calling it fake is fair, and lastly I’m pretty sure WG faked the CS-53 Blueprint, unless there were others documents found. Truly I do mean this as constructive criticism, I Am not trying to sound smart or anything, I just wanted to help clear some misconceptions, and I really just mean this to help. Otherwise as I said I loved the proposal as it works very well, and is just very well polished!

    1. Also a few things I forgot, The Batchat 25T AP is allegedly the very first version of the Batchat, not created by the Batchat company, but by FAMH as a 25ton medium tank, before they were turned into the Batchat company who continued developing it. thus it should be called the FAMH 25t, instead and it seems to be mostly real. Also the French conventional heavies seem half real and half fake again, as the most of the turrets are dubious, since they weren’t planned for the hulls they are mounted on, but the hulls are real and just have the wrong stats. They seem to be more Wg modified than fake in the end. Other wise as I said I don’t want to come off as condescending or as a smart ass, I just want to help Clear some misconceptions, and shed some light on unknown information. Otherwise if you continue proposing tech trees and branches like these and in this style, I very much look forward to them!

    2. Thanks, I’m happy you liked it!

      About the corrections:

      Grille 15
      It isn’t real. WG just misrepresented the whole thing. While the Grille 15 indeed was a real project:
      https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/waffentrager-panthers
      But none of these projects could be considered represented by whatever the WoT model is. The closest is the GW Panther, that thing should be called the Grille 15. Same for the GW Tiger as it was designated as the Grille 21.

      T28
      The situation is similar. Just look at the early drawing of the T28, and the in-game model. Not only it is way smaller and has a completely different hull shape, but the most conspicuous thing is the suspension. The early T28’s tracks have nothing to do with Wargaming’s model. It should be twice as wide, at least. Calling it fake is pretty much fair, as WG really did not have any mid-top tier US TD candidates so they decided to split the T28 project to numerous separate vehicles.

      China
      China is an interesting one. They really didn’t have any original vehicles developed independently except a few top tier ones. As for the lights, maybe you are right. I’ll check them again soon, but there are differences between the category WG modification and Fictional, but more on that later.

      CS-53
      I’m not sure about that one. It is possible that they were designed by cadets. But to say the least, the vehicle isn’t a historically accurate one by all means.

      Batignolles-Châtillon 25t
      To be fair, there aren’t any external sources on that one. It is pretty mysterious if Wargaming really found something or just wanted to split this project as well. Their description is too detailed for saying it is completely fake, as they usually just describe fakes as ‘never built’ or ‘existed only in blueprints’, but until any reliable information about the project found, I’d label it as fictional. I have no idea why didn’t they just use the Lorraine 40t, it was stupid wasting a historical tank as a premium.

      AMX M4
      Originally, there was a prototype version of the AMX 50 with an oscillating turret called M 4. Also at the end of the war, Atelier Moulineaux designed a heavy tank based on the Tiger II, also named as M4. What happened is Wargaming just made a whole branch out of the latter one but mixed up the two completely different projects. The turret of the mle. 51 and 54 are completely fictitious. Although the difference between a fictional and a ‘modified’ vehicle is while the Object 263 version 4’s armor was doubled to make it a playable (rather overpowered) top tier nominee, the AMX M4 mle. 51/54 didn’t even exist even on paper. To prove my point, you can just take the Panther, combine its hull design with the Tiger II, design a fictional turret for it, and give it Tier X stats. Here you have the Panther mod. 45, of course, don’t take it too seriously.

      Thank you again for the corrections, constructive criticism is always welcomed!

      1. Mle 51/54 turret is not fictional. It’s an alternative paper proposal for a conventional turret to be installed on the M4/lowered AMX-50 series of hulls. Oscillating turrets were very much an unproven concept and many of the nations produced tanks with oscillating turrets and conventional turrets in tandem as a sort of fail safe, as it were, think of the T54E1 and the T54E2

        https://i.imgur.com/doqoGz0.jpg

        1. Didn’t know about that, thanks for the correction!

          By the way that is a TCB turret system. It wasn’t originally developed for the AMX 50 chassis, but there are no sources (except Wargaming) mentioning that it was planned to be mounted on an early AMX 50.

          But it doesn’t change the fact that WG just mixed it up with the King Tiger based AMX, split the project into two vehicles as they didn’t have other top-tier nominees (although there are no problems making two vehicles from a project until there are real differences), not to mention the fictional stats, as the original version of the early AMX 50 (M4) had 30 mm armor protection (it was later increased to 80 mm), but WG tripled it to say the least.

          All in all, it is fair calling it fictional as we don’t even know for sure if the turret was planned for that chassis, or is it just something WG came up with, they completely mixed up the hull design (just take a look at that blueprint, it has a pike nose, and way more low-profile than the mle. 51/54 represented in the game), and they gave it ridiculously exaggerated stats to make two top tier vehicles from the project. But thank you again for the blueprint, at least I got to know that its turret was an existing development.

    3. Well, Grille 15 (TD-X) in WoT has historical hull (according to russian WG historian Yuri Pasholok), historical turret (you may have seen in my article) and totally fake gun.
      15 cm L/63 existed, but it was significantly bigger in size. The gun is WoT is ordinary elongated GW Panther top gun.

  5. I am Hungarian and it would be nice to see Hungarian tanks, thank you, if it were possible to develop the tree, it would please many of us.

  6. Never expected to see this here, and It’s well put together impressive but my only complaints are of the LT’s line, Weegee hinted that they’re will, maybe be a British Armored car line in the future but the thing is though is that they’re going to be classed as mediums. so the tier 9 and 10 can be classed as mediums respectfully for balance.

    Also I hope that you do some articles on those wheeled tanks, some of them I’ve never known about such as those high tiers. funny to think that (can’t remember his name now.) but someone at Weegee said. “No Hungarian or Swiss tanks not enough interesting tanks.” what a load of bullshit, especially coming from the guys who found these “Polish secret documents” that Polish historians never knew of. Despite some of them working for the same college where these “documents.” were found.

    Anyway seeing as how the boys in charge here at TAP are posting a lot of proposals from others. here are some of my tech tree proposal I posted on imgur. https://imgur.com/a/wQts6ih (lol I forgot to tag them all well.)

    Some of the Info is out of date and I should update, but what happened in the past has made me move on to other things and If I ever go back to archive digging here in Canada again, I would rather give my finds to Gaijin or the WoWS dev team, In fact right now, if the shadows i’m chasing right now are true. Than a Commonwealth(Australian and Canadian) BB line for WoWS can become reality.

    I’ll let you guys at TAP, the guys over at the daily bounce, and the boys on alltheworldsbattlecruisers know what I find of these “Lake Battleships”. once COVID is done and the archives open their doors again.

    1. “someone at Weegee said. “No Hungarian or Swiss tanks not enough interesting tanks.” what a load of bullshit”

      It’s funny that they said this, considering they were teasing the Swiss and Hungarian nations in one of their Polish tank Dev diary video.

      1. And to top it off, the gimmick of the Polish medium line is their Turbine engine that the CS-63 comes equipped with. Yet Switzerland had a functioning modification of an Panzer 68 with a Turbine Engine as well.

        When I first saw the leaks and heard what the gimmick was, I was so angry that I was afraid of posting fearing that I would make an ass out myself.

        Also read the description of the Imgur album I posted, you can’t see it on PC only on mobile view. holy shit was I mad. I also figured out who said what, that pushed me off the deep end.

        “the tanks are over, there are no more tanks.” Vyacheslav Makarov.

        Seems fitting, this is the guy who said that you can fight a 252U with a TVP VTU without issue.

        1. Yeah, there is no way Poland would ever design a tank with gas turbine during the Cold War. The Swiss were robbed out of their tech tree gimmick in favor of some new fake Polish tanks.

    2. I didn’t know the British wheelies will be classified as mediums, but Hungarian ones just can’t. None of them has thicker armor than 20 mm, their only trick is the top speed.
      By the way, the EBR’s should be TD’s, they have an excellent gun for a light tank, not to mention that the 105 is fictional, but they just didn’t want to use a historical model like the ERC, as its main role was to be a TD, more like the B1 Centauro.

      Soon there will be detailed articles about each branch, but I can share pictures about the wheeled ones:
      https://imgur.com/a/LhbUPkR

      Also, your proposals are amazing. There are just a few things I’d like to mention, but I know, you said they are a bit outdated by now.

      The biggest problem is the clone models. There are just plenty of them. People just won’t find it interesting to play the exact same low and mid-tier vehicles that are already in the game. If there just can’t be a complete branch without two Shermans, Stuarts, SU’s, or T-34’s, it just doesn’t worth creating a full tech tree. I mean I’m not against the idea, but a new Chinese tree is not what the game needs. Just a quick example: Israel exists since 1948. That’s three years after the war ended. They didn’t fight in the war, they did not have original developments. It really is nice that they have quite a few top tier candidates (ignoring the fact that the Merkava went into service in 1979, the Sho’t is a barely modified Centurion, there are quite a few of them already in the game, and the Tiran’s are T-55’s and T-62’s in Egyptian service), but that’s just not enough to make a full line of tanks in a game that is mostly about WW2 tanks.

      A solution would be to add them as Collector’s vehicles, but regardless, you did a really good job! Wish you luck, keep up the quality.

      1. I understand, when I was working on the Brazilian armored cars of my tech tree proposal, I had a hard time figuring out how I was going to add the Succuri I to the LT branch, I wanted to keep it an LT, but with a combat weight of over 30 tons and the EBR 105 in game weighs in, under 20 tons. I should’ve made it into an MT instead, (making it a TD was possible as well but it just wouldn’t fit as well to the line’s play style.)

        When I made my Tech trees, I made them under the idea that I was a part of the dev team at WoT that’s why I said they should be classed as MT’s because based on the images sent they look like they weigh just under or as heavy as the Succuri I and the South African NGAC wheeled tanks.

        Unfortunately due to the way WG built the game’s Tech Trees, Clones are the future if we wan’t these Tech Trees in the game, It just like what’s happening now in Warthunder where every nation there has a Sherman, except the Swedes, but in the near future they’ll get one since they bought a Sherman for testing purposes and Sweden needs low tier tanks for their line ups.

        I don’t like it either, but that’s just how the cookie crumbles. I really wish nation based tech trees weren’t a thing and we had a catalog, research, and or market system instead.

        PS thanks for the pics by the way.

  7. No need for other nation tanks in WoT as already are too much to handle for new players and maybe for old ones. As for polish, czech, italian, japanese and others branches, all are useless and mostly fake, even more those(this) new proposals fakes. In fact, all WoT needs is only USSR, USA and Germany tech tree and all other is just needless so WG only needs to delete all other tech trees. Oh, I almost forgot… no arty or wheels in the WoT game, it just ruin it and make me instantly press the magic buttons in WoT : Alt+F4(in the same time). The bottom line is that if any nation or even other line of existing is introduced I will permanently quit this game as it is now just a shadow of what it was when I started play it back in 2013…in the begining, yeah, that was fun to just hunt them and use armour of your tank, use aiming to weakspots that actually works, that I call fun but now is just enter battle, be instant spoted by yolo wheely making his 10 seconds run, lose half of side armour in first seconds of battle start then go where you need to fight and lose the other half of armour to premium shells that enemy fires at you and be stuned or dmg by arty, go to garage and repeat, fast round make WG win big bucks because everybody needs to pay for shells, credits and so on, no fun that it used to be just WG profiting by their users in so many ways that scares even a crock. So, concluding, I think that WoT is not in need for this or any other nation proposals and this is exacltly the reason that WG will implement it somehow, sometime as they do all the time “what’s best for the game”

      1. I have to disagree with this. The game would be way more broken if they reverted back the ”free” premium ammo change.

    1. Okay grandpa, it’s time for you to take your meds and go back to the asylum you’ve escaped from.

    2. I’m so sorry, but this article isn’t about that. I have nothing to do with how the game should be balanced.

      It is astonishing to hear you found my proposal mostly fake. It actually means you didn’t even read it through. I never included fictional or clone vehicles in any of my writings, and I will never do.

      Also, the game is all about new tanks and nations, this is what most players want, but it didn’t happen in the past few years (except the fictional ones, or small branches to existing nations).

      And I have no idea why are you already against it, I haven’t even revealed the characteristics, maybe they would be your next favorite tanks. But all in all, the game should be rebalanced from its roots, and not by not adding anything new and hoping that things will change.

  8. Bonjour, I am French and I use google trad to talk.
    I am the creator of the BCNP WOT topic on the WOT FR forum
    http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/550734-bcnp-wot-branches-de-chars-et-nations-potentielles-pour-wot/page__pid__12028755#entry12028755
    and frankly as much, what you did was rubbish.
    so let’s quote a few points:

    1- the toldi III
    Its gun is capable of piercing Tier IVs without problems,
    Yes,and?
    it is a Hungarian version of the English QF-2 pdr 40 mm gun
    gun which was present in Tier II until 6 months ago and still present today on all English Tier III tanks.
    if the Toldi III is not appreciated, it is simply that it has 15 shots / mins
    while the QF-2 pdr 40 mm of the English tier III tanks make between 18 and 28 shots / mins,
    which, inevitably, makes it execrable.
    and comparing it to the BT-7 is ridiculous because they are in no way comparable,
    the Toldi is a classic battle tank and the BT-7 is a much faster and more mobile recon tank.

    2- the Turan III
    Its gun is a Hungarian version of the 75 mm KwK L / 48 of the Panzer IV, while having protective skirts of the tracks and turret and a frontal turret and hull armor of 75 mm,
    http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2016/35/1472838347-9hkjiip.png
    it is lately an equivalent to Pz IV H that to put it elsewhere than in tier V with the Pz IV H is absurd.

    3- the 44MTas
    No, it has no place in Tier VIII,
    its gun is either the 75 mm 42 M. L / 70, the Hungarian version of the 7.5 cm L / 70, which perfectly suits the Tas Prototype in tier VI, or the 80 mm 29/44 M. L / 58 suitable for a 44M Tas tier VII
    and the 8.8 cm barrel, it is fake, old fake but fake all the same, the barrel in question is the 8.8 cm L / 56 of the Tiger I, it does not come from the Panther and this cannon with a lower perforation than the base perforation of Tier VIII light tanks.

    4- the Tas Rohamloveg
    it’s a fake tank, there’s no point in offering it, it’s a fake,
    and if WG puts tank fakes in his game, that’s no reason to encourage him to continue, on the contrary.

    5- the Straussler MBT and Straussler AAC / 12
    they are English tanks.
    Whether you like it or not, they are English tanks, created in the United Kingdom, with English armament elements (the Sraussler MBT uses the 120 mm gun of the Cheiftain), and the projects have been proposed to the English army .
    it is not because the engineer is of Hungarian origin that these tanks are Hungarian.

    6-You are aware that you have your Hungarian tree in front of you without having to do anything with the historical stats of the Hungarian tanks ??? !!!

    No, but that’s incredible!
    You have it! you have found the missing link of the hungarian tree!
    the post-war tank found in a Czech forum!
    that’s just what was missing to complete the Hungarian tree without doing anything with the stats of the Hungarian tanks,
    why do you keep tearing down the hungarian tanks ?!

    Make a tech tree for WOT, or another game of the same kind,
    In methaphora, it’s like making a puzzle except that you have to start by finding the pieces of the puzzle before you can put it together,
    But you must already start by assembling the pieces before passing the pieces in the mixer to make Papier-mâché history that the puzzle is easier to malleable to assemble, it doesn’t matter that it doesn’t look like anything in the end, especially when it comes in on its own without needing to intervene to modify a part.

    Tier I: V-4
    Tier II: Toldi
    Tier III: Turan I
    Tier IV: Turan II
    Tier V: Turan III
    Tier VI: 44M Tas Prototype
    Tier VII: 44M Tas
    Tier VIII, IX and X: you decline the post war tank found in a Czech forum and with Russian post war tanks of the Hungarian army,
    or even make 2 branch in tier IX-X
    one is the project that you decline in tier VIII-IX and X
    the other branch is Hungarian T-55s in tier IX and X.
    it is perfectly doable and without having to do anything.

    Here, it took me 20 mins
    https://nsa40.casimages.com/img/2020/09/15/20091511392459575.jpg
    and I didn’t need to demolish the Hungarian tanks to do it.

    On the BCNP WOT topic, we make nation trees for WOT since 2016,
    we are at 16 nations with the 11 already in game and we will add one more in a few days,
    the Hungary.

    Seriously, if you are so keen to add these tanks to WOT, start by respecting them …
    it will already be a very good step forward.

    1. Hey, anodjl!

      I’m disappointed that you found my work “rubbish”, but I didn’t get it why were you so offensive.
      I’m also sure you didn’t read it through, because I clearly declared that there will be an extremely detailed, historical article including everything from the development to the historical stats of the vehicle.

      About your points:

      43M Toldi: From where did it came that the Toldi III’s gun is a version of the British QF? Honestly, it seems like you are talking in the air. The 42M 40 mm L/45 used in the last series of Toldi’s has nothing to do with the 2 pounder, Hungary didn’t even have any Ordnance canons in the war. I’m sorry, but that’s just ludicrous. It was designed by the engineers of the MÁVAG (Hungarian State Iron and Machineworks) based on the Bofors L/60. I’d like to see the sources where you found that!
      I have also no idea what did you want to say with the rate of fire. If you’d give “historical” RoF to the vehicles in the game, the IS-3 would be able to fire one or maximum of two shots per minute, but only if the stars align. I hope you understand what I’m trying to tell you with that, you just can’t cling that hard on authenticity.
      And I compared the Toldi with the BT-7 and few other lights to demonstrate how a low-caliber gun should look like in Tier IV, and not to compare their maneuverability or reconnaissance ability, and exactly for this reason I cropped the spreadsheet to display only the gun characteristics, but looks like it wasn’t unequivocal enough.

      43M Turán: There won’t be only one gun module for the vehicle. Just check it how the game works, the vehicles have a stock and upgraded canons. As for the 43M 75 mm L/43 (Tier V gun), it was indeed based on the KwK 40, but it will be the stock gun. In the top configuration, it will have the 75 mm KwK 42 (Tier VI), but it was obvious as I shared a picture of the characteristics of the tank in the article, illustrating the alpha and the penetration values, and also a chart showing all the guns Hungary had in the interwar period. If you did a quick search, you might found out that the numbers are representing the KwK 42, but seems like you didn’t. Also, the 75 mm armor you mentioned is likely to be inaccurate, as it certainly reached at least 80 mm at the thickest part (some sources mention 95 mm).

      44M Tas: In the proposal, the 44M Tas is at Tier VII. What you are talking about is the Korbuly-variant, but it would be too long to explain it. As I said, in the upcoming days you can take a look at a more comprehensive post where you will find answers for all your doubts. As for the 88 mm gun, it could get that canon, as it was available in moderate numbers by the army, but there are no original sources mentioning that it was planned. Anyway, just take a look at the gun selection of the top-tier Czech, Italian, Polish, Swedish, or Japanese vehicles. You will find a dozen of unhistorical modules.

      Tas Rohamlöveg: First off, we have to set down what can be considered as fictional, and what can’t. By the way, it is sanctimonious acting like the game doesn’t have a single vehicle that was dreamed-up by Wargaming. There are complete branches full of fictional models.
      Trust me, It isn’t my goal to add even more of them. It was a few years ago when an article about the vehicle appeared here, on TAP. Don’t you remember that ndiver told you this?
      “Theoretically yes, but the situation is exactly the same as for the Czech tier 9. Yes, indeed it’s a fake. But it’s not a WG fake, it’s an error of interpretation made long time ago by an historian that was lacking of the complete information to interpret the data he had, and we tough for long time that it was true until recent information disproved it.
      It’s a fake by the meaning “error of interpretation”, but not a fake like the “Klein Tiger” which is a pure lie by a false historian and real liar, or like WG / fakes as the T110E4 or like KongZhong’s Chinese TDs.
      By consequence, I consider that we should still keep it as putative tank in the Hungarian tree, but with big warnings and explanations of where it comes from.”

      Straussler MBT/AAC 12: Panhard designed the 178B for Indonesia and Vietnam. The Brits created the Conqueror for the West German army. West Germany designed the Indien Panzer for India. And there are plenty of other examples.
      Does it mean that they are Indonesian, Vietnamese, Italian, or Indian vehicles? That’s a nonsense point of view you are trying to argue with. Straussler’s designs are just as Hungarian as Italian the Standard B is.
      Also, Straussler’s vehicles would also be represented in the Hungarian tree anyway, with the V-4 light tank. Without them, the Hungarian tanks will probably never make it into the game, or maybe only as premium tanks.
      And another more fact to prove my aspect is that they have an extremely limited chance to become British vehicles in World of Tanks, since there are a number of other, also not that well known but perhaps better suited, more interesting paper designs by the UK for the same role.
      Moreover, the chances to get yet another, third British tank destroyer branch in the foreseeable future are next to zero.

      “You are aware that you have your Hungarian tree in front of you without having to do anything with the historical stats of the Hungarian tanks ??? !!!”
      Do you know how many months did I spent researching and working on this? I don’t think so. I highly recommend you to check out my upcoming article. To say the least, do not judge a book by its cover.

      As for the branch you proposed: Splitting the same project to 3 different vehicles? Players wouldn’t like that. How boring it would be to grind and play nearly the same tank not only 2 times but 3 times in the branch… Just take a look at the Foch, AMX 13, AMX M4, O-Ho, Emil, AT 7, Centurion, or ST-II. These all were one project, but WG just made 3 vehicles out each of them.
      Not to mention the T-55 clones that you wanted to add. I thought one Chinese tree is enough.
      And dropping the Tas to Tier VI with better armor than most same-tier heavies and the mobility of a medium tank? It would be incredibly overpowered, based on historical stats.

      All in all, you should respect these vehicles, and not underestimating their capabilities.

      1. oh, rubbish? translation error, I wanted to say rather “ridiculous”

        Did you notice the error on the Toldi? that’s good, i had left some errors on the Toldi, Turan, Tas and Rohamloveg to check if you at least know your subject, the hungarian tanks, and the result is not amazing.

        the Toldi,
        despite the error I left, it hardly changes what I said, if the Toldi III is bad in WOT tier III, it’s only because of its rate of fire of 15 shots / mins in game. Yes, his IRl rate of fire is also 15 shots / mins, but who cares about his IRL rate of fire, the problem is his in game rate of fire.
        it just needs to have a rate of fire comparable to the tier III cannon of the same caliber, perforation and damage, the English QF-2 pdr 40 mm.
        it doesn’t need to be pushed into a tier or it doesn’t belong.
        it just needs to have a better rate of fire in game, because that’s the only thing it lacks to be a decent tank in tier III.

        -Turan III
        you did not notice anything about the errors that I left, it is beautiful
        I said the gun is a Hungarian version of the 7.5 cm L / 48
        this is wrong, it is a Hungarian version of the 7.5 cm L / 43,
        and I said that the Turan III is an equivalent to the Pz IV H tier V,
        which is also wrong, it only has the stock gun of the Pz IV H and just 260 hp of engine to compare with the 440 hp of the WOT Pz IVH.
        I expected you to respond by citing possibilities for improvements that make it playable,
        but from there to what you leave me calm that it will have the 75 mm cannon of the Panther,
        I admit that I did not expect to read such nonsense …
        because if he could have this gun on the Turan, they would not have made the 44M Tas and it would be a long time since the Pz IV would have had this gun in turret. it is not just because this gun was present in the Hungarian arsenal that it could be mounted on anything and everything.
        And to continue my reflection, how to improve the Turan III so that it is correctly playable?
        Hmm … let’s see what we can find in the Hungarian army at the time …
        oh! of Pz IV G in the Hungarian army.
        https://i.imgur.com/o9u8NKJ.png
        There you have it, then just take the engines and the 7.5 cm L / 48 barrel of the Pz IV G and add them to the Turan III to make it playable in tier V and the result is not absurd.
        And we can do the same with the Turan II,
        it was nothing better than a Hungarian version of the 7.5cm L / 24 if I’m not mistaken, the short 75mm of the Pz IV. yes, except that the prototype Turan II is a Turan II chassis with the Turan III turret.
        The turan II can therefore have the turret and cannon of the Turan III.
        which then balances it at tier IV, it remains less mobile than the WOT Pz IV D tier IV but it is much better armored than the 30 mm of the Pz IV D
        and this 7.5 cm L / 43 barrel is the same barrel as the full barrel of the Pz IV D and the stock barrel of the Pz IV H just as it becomes the full barrel of the Turan II and the stock barrel of the Turan III.
        if the pieces of the puzzle come together on their own, it is useless to want to put them elsewhere, even less if it is not necessary.

        44MTas
        you made the point perfectly,
        but considering how you balance the Turan III, I’m not kidding myself about what you’re going to do with the Tas tier VIII …
        and the error I left is that the heap may well be tier VIII,
        it can be tier VI, VII and VIII.
        – in tier VI, the prototype Tas with 75-100 mm of armor, the panther’s 7.5 cm L / 70 barrel and a 500 hp engine which gives it around 13.5 hp / t
        -in tier VII, the 44MTas with 75-120 mm of armor, the 29/44 M L / 58 gun and a 520 hp engine which gives it around 14 hp / t
        – in tier VIII, the 44M Tas with its latest engine up to 700 hp which gives it 19 hp / t, we can then improve the 29/44 ML / 58 by making it fire the gold ammunition from the barrel in tier VII as a basic ammunition or put another gun of its time like the 8.8 cm L / 71

        TasRohamlöveg
        “First off, we have to set down what can be considered as fictional, and what can’t.”
        Yes,perfectly.
        The Turan III with the 7.5 cm L / 70 is fictional.
        “By the way, it is sanctimonious acting like the game doesn’t have a single vehicle that was dreamed-up by Wargaming. There are complete branches full of fictional models.”
        Yes,Perfectly.
        this is why on BCNP WOT, we replace them with real tanks,
        we have removed and / or replaced 90% of WOT’s fakes tank.
        As long as you clearly indicate the doubts as to its origin,
        As long as you do not force its integration into the Tank destroyers with tanks pushed into the tiers where they have nothing to do with it.
        As long as you take into account its huge flaws in its balancing. it had -7 ° of depreciation with the 7.5 cm L / 70 and much less with the much larger 8.8 cm L / 71.
        We can keep it.

        Straussler MBT / AAC 12:
        I repeat, these are English tanks, created in the United Kingdom, with English armament elements (the Sraussler MBT uses the 120 mm gun of the Cheiftain), and the projects were proposed to the English army.
        We can add that it is done by an engineer of Hungarian origin who obtained English nationality and who lived in London when he made these projects.
        It is not because the engineer is of Hungarian origin that these tanks are Hungarian.

        -the Panhard 178b was designed for indochina, viet-nam when it was a French territory, therefore for the French army.
        -the Indian panzer was designed for india, yes and it is in the german tree because there is no indian tree on wot.
        On the other hand, there is a Commenwealt tree on BCNP WOT with the Indian panzer in tier VIII and the Indian Vijyanta in tier X.
        – “Straussler’s designs are just as Hungarian as Italian the Standard B is.”
        Be careful what you say, Standard B is Prototype B of the German Leopard I,
        https://forum.warthunder.com/uploads/monthly_2017_07/Capture.JPG.2735161e0d5845a9d91b432ef659d49e.JPG
        a tank that has nothing to do with the Italian tree.
        it’s a shame because italy produced the Leopard I under license in 1974, so it can have its prototype leopard I and its Leopard I.
        -The V-3 and V-4 were developed to order and funded by the Hungarian Defense Ministry, it cannot be denied that they belong to Hungary.
        -The Straussler MBT, for the role of tank destroyer specializing in mobility and camouflage like the Kanonenjagdpanzer, it is placed in tier X of such a branch.
        -the AAC / 12 is part of the proposed projects for the creation of what will become the FV 601 Saladin, if one day they make the English armored vehicles on wheels, there is a good chance that it will be part of it.

        “Do you know how many months did I spent researching and working on this? I don’t think so.”
        indeed I don’t know, but what little I saw makes it clear to me that you spent more time in tank modeling than in historical research.

        “I highly recommend you to check out my upcoming article. To say the least, do not judge a book by its cover.”
        well, sorry if your cover doesn’t sell the dream.

        “Just take a look at the Foch, AMX 13, AMX M4, O-Ho, Emil, AT 7, Centurion, or ST-II. These all were one project, but WG just made 3 vehicles out each of them.”
        wow, ok …
        -AMX-50 Foch, the AMX AC 46 and the AMX AC 48 exist as a complete plan and the Prototype AMX-50 Foch has been built.
        Very poorly balanced and full of false stats but they did exist
        AMX-13, the AMX-13 57 and AMX-12t were built, the AMX-13 75, 90 and 105 have all 3 been mass-produced and exported, so findable all over the world, so tank possible in several possible nation or nation of WOT
        AMX M4, there are nearly 10 different versions of this tank besides the oscillating turret version AMX-50.
        Ho-O is a fake tank unrelated to any Japanese tank,
        failed, it is the O-Ni which is a propaganda drawing of the O-I
        O-I which is therefore available in 3 versions of which only 1 is correct
        EMIL there are roughly 5 versions, EMIL medium tank (the heavy tier VIII of WOT, that’s why it is 28 tons) EMIL I, EMIL II, EMIL III or Karvagn and Strv K.
        AT-7, there are 18-20 versions of the AT project, at least 16 and flamethrower versions that I didn’t care about and so I didn’t remember their number.
        Centurion, mass-produced and massively exported, therefore findable all over the world, therefore tank possible in several nations or possible nations of WOT
        ST-II is just a turret for the ST-I, the 3 others in tier VIII-IX are fakes tank that have nothing to do with the ST-II except the double cannon.

        “Not to mention the T-55 clones that you wanted to add. I thought one Chinese tree is enough.”
        It’s true, except in premium tier X, they are useless
        it’s not like in china, poland or czechoslovakia where they have licensed and developed their own version of these tanks.

        “All in all, you should respect these vehicles, and not underestimating their capabilities.”
        yes, that does not mean that they should be doped to the point where they are ridiculous.

        1. I’m sorry, but the only thing that can be considered as ridiculous is how you are trying to defend your opinion after writing nonsense things, then saying you wrote those errors on purpose to check if I know anything about Hungarian tanks.

          Again, my remarks on your points:

          43M Toldi: Oh god, you are really trying to compare a gift tank from a videogame to the reality? That’s just not how it works. The Toldi III is bad in Tier III because it is a gift tank that was added 5 years ago, and not because it was bad in real life.

          43M Turán: Huh, where to start… The 7,5 cm KwK 40 L/43 and the L/48 are the same guns, except the latter one was a lengthened version, but they are pretty much identical.
          The Turán III doesn’t have the stock gun of the Pz. IV H, don’t mix up things. The KwK 40 L/43 is a Tier IV gun, while the Turán’s 43M 75 mm L/43 is at Tier V, already in the game on the Turán III Prototípus.
          Also, the Panzer IV have never had 440 hp engine, but not even 350 hp, as the Maybach HL120 TRM gasoline motor had 296 horse powers, pretty much the same as the WM V-8H used in the Turán. It isn’t a good thing that your studies are based on what the in-game vehicles have, because Wargaming buffed the previously mentioned Maybach engine to a point where it doesn’t even represents it correctly.
          Also, you are criticizing the gun selection, while you want to “improve” the Turáns by adding the entire module configuration of the Panzer IV. The pot calling the kettle black, says the proverb.
          And they designed the Tas to have at least an 80 mm canon. The KwK 42 gun on the Turán is based on the exact same fact as the Pz. IV Schmalturm in Tier VI. The 43M Turán’s turret was redesigned to be able to carry the best available 75 mm gun, although no sources mention that the unused KwK 42 guns of Hungary were planned to be mounted on anything. In my opinion the Turán with the enlarged turret would be the perfect model, as it doesn’t have any other alternatives for guns.
          Also you shouldn’t drop the 40M Turán I to Tier III, it has a 50 mm thick frontal armor, better than 95% of all same tier tanks. It would be as broken as the Valentine, but with two times better maximum speed.

          44M Tas: Tas with 75 mm armor? That would be as historical as dropping the Tiger to Tier V with 65 mm armor. You just can’t adulterate historical values.
          Also, when I said do not make 3 vehicles out of one, I meant it for everything, not only for the autoloader project.

          44M Tas Rohamlöveg: I’m not sure what did you wanted to say with the -7 degrees of vertical gun depression. There are plenty of tank destroyers dreaming about that value, for example the SU-101 has -3° in Tier VIII.

          Straussler MBT and AAC: I’m not going to convince you. It is your opinion, and I respect it. But you should respect mine as well. Because for me it is like you have your own project, and the AAC is already the part of a British branch, that’s why you don’t want to see it in my proposal.
          As for the other nations, I’m not going to comment on it since this article isn’t about that. They were for examples, but it is time disorder at its best, the Panhard 178B was produced after 1945, but Vietnam wasn’t French territory since 1945.

          Finally, that’s all I can say.

          1. Well, it’s just getting better …

            43M Toldi:
            “Oh god, you are really trying to compare a gift tank from a videogame to the reality?”
            Seriously, stop halucinating …
            In summary,
            -I said the Toldi III does not need to go to tier IV,
            -that it is perfectly in its place in tier III
            -but it has an in game rate of fire too low
            -I cited the English 40 mm as an example of a gun equivalent to the Toldi III gun balanced in tier III
            I did not make any comparison with reality.

            43M Turán:
            It’s misunderstood, ok,
            we are on World of Tanks, you can perfectly add fictitious modules, but only if it is coherent with the real tank.
            In clear,
            Historically the Turan III is an equivalent to the Panzer IV,
            it is therefore logical that it is placed in the same tier as the Pz IV.
            it is logical and coherent.
            And given that he has Pz IV armament and that there were Pz IV in the Hungarian army, it is coherent that he can have access to the 75 mm gun and engine of the Pz IV to be able to balance it. at tier V.

            “The 43M Turán’s turret was redesigned to be able to carry the best available 75 mm gun”
            yes, that’s why he uses the 43M 75mm L/43, because it was the best 75 mm gun available at the time
            and this is also why the first versions of the Tas use the 43M 75 mm L / 43 while waiting for the development of the 80 mm gun, because it was the best gun available at the time.

            Does the Turan I in tier III bother you?
            put the Toldi II instead, it’s not a problem.

            “44M Tas: Tas with 75 mm armor? That would be as historical as dropping the Tiger to Tier V with 65 mm armor. You just can’t adulterate historical values.”

            You are serious? really?
            You make a tech tree for WOT,by your own words you’ve been working on it for months
            But you are not screwed to learn the armor values ​​of one of the most important tanks in your tree ??? !!!
            https://i.imgur.com/84sVrd2.png
            You are serious???!!!!
            But, in fact you are just a huge joke!

            I have no doubts now, you clearly spent a lot more time inventing tank stats than doing historical research on them.

            No need to reply to this message,
            I have already wasted enough time with you.

            Ps: Vietnam was founded in 1954 following the end of the Indochina war.
            https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi%C3%AAt_Nam
            Opening a Wikipedia page every now and then won’t hurt you …

            1. You are still very offensive, but I just can’t comprehend why…

              First off, I’m not hallucinating. You said exactly that the Toldi III is bad because its in-game rate of fire. And you also compared it to the real life gun, but I’d like to correct you that the 36M 40 mm canon was able to fire around 33 shots per minute.
              And no, you didn’t quote the 2 pounder only as an example, but you said that the Toldi’s gun is a version of it. Just scroll back, check what you wrote.

              This is the most crucial problem with your approach. You can’t add fictional modules to vehicles, only because it is World of Tanks. That’s just not how it works, the modules had to be proposed at least.
              The Turán I and II is what can be considered as something similar to the Pz. IV F as all of them had the same protection/mobility/firepower level.
              On the other hand, the 43M Turán is anything but not identical historically to the Pz. IV. Statistically it is way better armored than the Panzer IV H, but had pretty much similar maneuverability and armament. Historically it was developed later than the Ausf. H, so can’t be equivalent as engineers were already be able to use such design solutions that weren’t available by the time when the Panzer IV H was designed.
              The Turán has nothing to do with the Pz. IV or its configuration.

              The first version of the Tas was planned with the KwK 42, but as the Germans refused to export it in high numbers, it was replaced with the Bofors 80 mm gun. It was ready in October 1943, but as the trials showed some flaws, it was temporarily replaced with the Turán’s armament. So the first versions of the Tas used KwK 42 L/70 and 80 mm Bofors guns, but not the 43M 75 mm.
              And I exactly know the armor values of the Tas. Have you noticed the 100 mm thick armor plates on the front and the back? They aren’t there by coincidence, you can’t just ignore them. And then you are saying I’m a huge joke…

              I have no idea what’s wrong with the French Wikipedia, but check the original English one about Vietnam. “Independence declared from France: 2 September 1945”

              And excuse me, I never dreamed up or used fictional statistics, and I will never do.

              1. Unfortunately he is not only offensive but ill-mannered, too. But never mind; “Le style est l’ homme même.” Please, continue the brilliant work instead.

    2. I have to disagree with you, this guys passion and work is applaudable and he balanced the vehicles well while remaining historical

  9. Hello, really GG for the branch rendering on the WoT Research channel, is it Photoshop or is there a WoT Research channel template?

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