Full French Battleship Tree Proposal (Player-Made)

Original NA Forum Link

Direct Link to original Spreadsheet with complete stats

edited by godzilla5549


Tier III: Courbet

Type: Historical – 1913

  • HP: 33,100
  • Armor Details: 270mm main belt, 180mm upper belt, 70mm main deck
  • Main Armament: 6×2 305mm/45 Model 1910
  • Firing Range: 10.3 km
  • Rate of Fire: 2.0 rounds/minute
  • HE Shell Damage: 3,500
  • AP Shell Damage: 8,600
  • Secondary Armament: 22x 138.6mm Model 1910
  • Secondary Firing Range: 3.5 km
  • Long-Range AA Armament: 6×1 75mm/50 Model 1922
  • Long-Range AA DPS: 9
  • Short-Range AA Armament: 6×2 + 2×1 13.2mm/76 Model 1929
  • Short-Range AA DPS: 16 + 3
  • Maximum Speed: 21 knots
  • Turning Circle Radius: 580 meters
  • Surface Detection Range: 10.7 km

Thoughts: Essentially a Kawachi. Likely to be a derpy little ship that no one will spend time on.


Tier IV: Bretagne (Lorraine)

Type: Historical – 1915 (Lorraine 1938)

  • HP: 42,600
  • Armor Details: 250mm main belt, 160mm upper belt, 50mm main deck, 70mm armored slopes
  • Main Armament: 4×2 340mm/45 Model 1912
  • Firing Range: 13.1 km
  • Rate of Fire: 2.0 rounds/minute
  • HE Shell Damage: 4,400
  • AP Shell Damage: 9,100
  • Secondary Armament: 14x 138.6mm Model 1910
  • Secondary Firing Range: 4.0 km
  • Long-Range AA Armament: 4×2 100mm/45 Model 1930
  • Long-Range AA DPS: 63
  • Mid-Range AA Armament: 8×1 37mm/50 Model 1933
  • Mid-Range AA DPS: 8
  • Short-Range AA Armament: 2×4 13.2mm/76 Model 1931
  • Short-Range AA DPS: 29
  • Maximum Speed: 20 knots
  • Turning Circle Radius: 590 meters
  • Surface Detection Range: 14.5 km

Thoughts: I chose Lorraine as she was refitted with a catapult. As a note, despite the 340mm caliber, the gun is quite weak and will have poor ballistics and penetration.


Tier V: Normandie

Type: Completed – 1914, but were ordered to be scrapped according to the WNT with Béarn being completed as an aircraft carrier

  • HP: 48,600
  • Armor Details:Normandie
  • Main Armament: 3×4 340mm/45 Model 1912
  • Firing Range: 15.2 km
  • Rate of Fire: 2.0 rounds/minute
  • HE Shell Damage: 4,400
  • AP Shell Damage: 9,100
  • Secondary Armament: 24x 138.6mm Model 1910
  • Secondary Firing Range: 4.5 km
  • Short-Range AA Armament: 6x 47mm/40 Hotchkiss 3-pdr
  • Short-Range AA DPS: Negligible
  • Maximum Speed: 21 knots
  • Turning Circle Radius: 670 meters
  • Surface Detection Range: 14.9 km

Thoughts: Introduction of the quadruple turret. This will very much need a fictional hull refit to work at Tier V in terms of AA (unless WG is content with it).


Tier VI: Strasbourg

Type: Historical – 1939 (Strasbourg is given a fictional (theoretical) USA refit of 1943 as a top hull)

  • HP: 53,800
  • Armor Details:DunkerqueStrasbourg: 283mm armored belt, 228mm bulkhead, 50mm armored slopes, 360mm turret faces
  • Main Armament: 2×4 330mm/52 Model 1931
  • Rate of Fire: 2.1 rounds/minute
  • HE Shell Damage: 4,800
  • AP Shell Damage: 9.700
  • Secondary Armament: 3×4 + 2×2 130mm/45 Model 1932
  • Secondary Firing Range: 5.0 km
  • Long-Range AA Armament: 3×2 + 2×2 130mm/45 Model 1932
  • Long-Range AA DPS: 36 + 17
  • Mid-Range AA Armament: 10×4 40mm/56 Bofors Mark 2
  • Mid-Range AA DPS: 159
  • Short-Range AA Armament: 28×1 20mm/70 Oerlikon Mark 4
  • Short-Range AA DPS: 100
  • Maximum Speed: 30 knots
  • Turning Circle Radius: 730 meters
  • Surface Detection Range: 16.4 km

Thoughts: Basically a better Dunkerque. It will be interesting to see what will be done with Strasbourg, and if she will get this massive USA refit.


Tier VII Croiseur de Bataille 37,000t Type A/B

Type: Design – 1928

  • HP: 57,500
  • Armor Details:37,000t Type A
  • Main Armament: 3×4 305mm – Type A, 3×2 406mm/45 – Type B
  • Firing Range: 19.1 km
  • Rate of Fire: 2.6 rounds/minute – Type A, 2.1 rounds/minute – Type B
  • HE Shell Damage: 3,500 – Type A, 6,000 – Type B
  • AP Shell Damage: 8,600 – Type A, 11,900 – Type B
  • Secondary Armament: 3×4 130mm/45 Model 1932 – Type A (4×4 for Type B)
  • Secondary Firing Range: 5.0 km
  • Long-Range AA Armament: 3×4 130mm/45 Model 1932 – Type A (4×4 for Type B)
  • Long-Range AA DPS: 48 (36)
  • Mid-Range AA Armament: 8×1 90mm/50 Model 1926
  • Mid-Range AA DPS: 31
  • Maximum Speed: 33 knots – Type A, 27 knots – Type B
  • Turning Circle Radius: 850 meters – Type A, 800 meters – Type B
  • Surface Detection Range: Not currently available

Thoughts: This is what is called the “missing link” between the dreadnoughts of the pre-WNT era and Dunkerque. Avid history people will note the exclusion of the Lyon battleship design. This is due to a slight amount of personal intervention, as I do not believe that Lyon can be made as a balanced ship without heavy amounts of gimping somewhere (16x 340mm guns, the most number of guns in any broadside of any battleship in the game). But don’t abandon ship just yet, as I do believe Lyon deserves a spot as a premium, albeit with some thought put in to how the implementation will go along with a fictional hull refit to accommodate.


Tier VIII Richelieu

Type: Historical – 1940 (Richelieu is given the Brooklyn Naval Yard refit of 1943)

Side Note: Funny (kind of, but not really) story about the refit.

  • HP: 67,500
  • Armor Details:Richelieu – 430mm turret faces
  • Main Armament: 2×4 380mm/45 Model 1935
  • Firing Range: 22.9 km
  • Rate of Fire: 2.1 rounds/minute (this is the optimistic and corrected rate of fire, as the shell hoists were particularly bad until they could be modified)
  • HE Shell Damage: 5,900
  • AP Shell Damage: 11,800
  • Secondary Armament: 3×3 152mm/55 Model 1936 + 6×2 100mm/45 Model 1937
  • Secondary Firing Range: 7.0 km
  • Long-Range AA Armament: 6×2 100mm/45 Model 1937
  • Long-Range AA DPS: 94
  • Mid-Range AA Armament: 14×4 40mm/56 Bofors Mark 2
  • Mid-Range AA DPS: 222
  • Short-Range AA Armament: 48×1 20mm/70 Oerlikon Mark 4
  • Short-Range AA DPS: 172
  • Maximum Speed: 32 knots
  • Turning Circle Radius: 860 meters
  • Surface Detection Range: 16.6 km

Thoughts: Can WG hurry up and put her in the game already.


Tier IX Alsace

Type: Design – 1940

  • HP: 76,800
  • Armor Details: 350mm main belt, 170/180mm main armored deck
  • Main Armament: 3×4 380mm/45 Model 1936
  • Firing Range: 23.1 km
  • Rate of Fire: 2.1 or 2.2 rounds/minute
  • HE Shell Damage: 8,900 / 9,000
  • AP Shell Damage: 11,800
  • Secondary Armament: 3×3 152mm/55 Model 1936 + 12×2 100mm/45 Model 1937
  • Secondary Firing Range: 7.0 km
  • Long-Range AA Armament: 12×2 100mm/45 Model 1937
  • Long-Range AA DPS: 182
  • Mid-Range AA Armament: Unlisted amount of 37mm AA weapons
  • Mid-Range AA DPS: N/A
  • Short-Range AA Armament: Unlisted amount of 25mm AA weapons (said to be a new quadruple 25mm MG from Hotchkiss)
  • Short-Range AA DPS: N/A
  • Maximum Speed: 32 knots
  • Turning Circle Radius: 880 meters
  • Surface Detection Range: 16.8 km

Thoughts: She sure does sound like a fun ship to me. I went with the Type 3 design as it retained the quadruple turrets (Type 1 went with triples and Type 2 went with triple 406mm). It is also the closest design to Iowa (or at least the original design specs for Iowa).


Tier X Charlemagne – “Super Alsace”

Type: Design/Proposal

  • HP: N/A
  • Armor Details: N/A
  • Main Armament: 4×4 380mm/45 or 3×3 450mm M1920 (no mounting data exists, but the gun apparently did and was tested)
  • Rate of Fire: 2.2 rounds/minute for the 380mm guns
  • HE Shell Damage: N/A
  • AP Shell Damage: Unknown (1,366 kg shell at 875 m/s)
  • Auxiliary Armament: Purely speculative
  • Maximum Speed: 28 knots (?)
  • Turning Circle Radius: 900 meters +
  • Surface Detection Range: High

Thoughts: This will need to be a fictional hull based off of a “Super Alsace” design. If the 450mm gun is used, the whole thing will be to be loosely based off the fictional “Super Alsace” as any turret design for a French 450mm gun will be massive.

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17 thoughts on “Full French Battleship Tree Proposal (Player-Made)

  1. I dread the French 340mm armed ships.
    They’re going to be absolutely awful.

    German 305mm AP-level penetration, only without the instant fuze arming time that can so easily wreck even DDs.

    That’s another thing, the tier7 can be an absolute bastard if the guns have decent penetration, for the same reason as listed above.
    Just to specify, in the game, each caliber of AP shells has a fuze arming time and sensitivity.

    If you hit armor too thin, the AP shell will never arm, so will only ever be able to overpen.
    If you hit armor thick enough to arm the fuze, but the shell leaves the inside of the ship before the fuze goes off, you overpen.

    The bigger the caliber, the higher the fuze arming time and sensitivity, so the shells don’t prematurally explode before reaching the citadel.
    305mm AP doesn’t work like that. It has special rules with extremely low fuze time and sensitivty. While it will rarely citpen BBs, hitting a CA’s citadel and penetrating it generally means no citadel overpen.

    So back to this branch’s tier7, 12 305mm guns on a fast ship would be an absolute bane for cruisers on tiers 5-9. Absolute faceroll cruiser destruction.

    As far as the other guns go, the 330mm guns are amazing, and have more penetration than any 380mm gun in game so far, although the lack of accuracy tends to camoflage that fact.
    And the French 380mm guns, like the Italian ones, have as much penetration as the Iowa’s 406mm guns with super heavy shells. Only the French and the Italians have an extra 50-100 m/s extra velocity, making aiming so much easier.

    Overall, I’m expecting it to be the worst branch tiers 3-5 BY FAR, then mixing it up with classic ships and complete wildcard until tierX.
    Tiers 7, 8 and 10 being wildcards.

    Note: I consider the Richelieu to be a wildcard, because what works at tier6 might not work at tier8.
    The idiotic bow tanking/reverse meta also involves running away while firing, and having all your firepower at the front might compromize the Richelieu’s survivability compared to its peers.

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    1. The current 330mms are nothing special. Also even though the french have very high FPS, it doesnt mean they have great pen. Infact FPS killed accuracy and pen since all rounds are actually HE in nature. This is why many US ships late war were slowed up on purpose.

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      1. That’s speculative and false.

        The French 330s had roughly 100mm less penetration than the 406mm superheavy shells at 0m
        Not bad for a shell that’s 700kg lighter.
        At a long range of 27.5km, the 330 still maintained 342mm of pen for the 406’s 441 at a similar range.

        The 330s weren’t comparable to the 406s in terms of raw firepower, but for what is essentially a battlecruiser, that’s an excellent amount of firepower, on par with a lot of 380mm guns of the time.

        Accuracy on French ships was poor because of, at the very best, average FCS for modern ships, and bad FCS for 1910-1920s ship.
        Coupled with mechanical problems linked to quad turrets, notable vibrations during firing, and you have very bad accuracy.
        A same problem which plague the Russian triple 180.

        Only that was fixed, and the mechanical accuracy of the gun was completely normal.

        And all rounds weren’t “HE by nature”
        That’s you messing up busting charge values.
        AP rounds on 356mm guns was typically around 11kg
        The 330 has 20kg, putting it at a bit more than a 406’s AP bursting charge.
        Still WELL below the 60kg of an HE bursting charge on the 330, and 70kg of a 406 HE.

        As far as why US ships favored slow shells, they did so for two reasons:
        -They prefered relying on plunging fire, and very heavy shells with poor velocity did just that
        -They could afford to stay at long range and waste ammo, while the more strained IJN supplies couldn’t

        It had absolutely nothing to do with accuracy. I honestly don’t know why you would think that a slower shell that stays in flight longer and be subjected to environmental factors for longer would have more accuracy.

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  2. I hate those player made tech trees.Anyway….

    Lyon could easily be tier 7. Fuso has 12 larger guns at tier 6, good RoF and huge range, so i think Lyon would fit perfectly at tier 7 without any kind of gimping. Ok maybe turret rotation or lower RoF or lower accuracy.It will have lower range anyway so…

    Croiseur de Bataille (or whatever it’s called) looks to me like pure fiction and SCREAMS premium,especially with the 305 gun configuration. More firepower,less armor,same speed…it’s a perfect premium alternative.

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    1. Ah but you see, the Lyon has the 340mm guns, which are awful even by tier5 standard.
      Putting it on a tier7 would relegate it to a mindless HE spamming BB

      Doubly so if you compensate the 16 guns with even less accuracy and rof, making the already low velocity piece of shit weapon even less reliable.

      Hence the author’s use of the Croiseur de Bataille, which I object to for different reasons, but only from game mechanics point of view, and certainly less vehemently than a Lyon class at such a high tier.

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      1. First of all, they’re not as bad as you say.I don’t even know why you have that impression.

        I don’t see any issues with muzzle velocity…their performance is comparable to pretty much all the guns of that era. They’re very close to the Japanese 356mm for example, and with larger bursting charge for AP (more damage). Projectile weight is also good. I don’t see what the problem is. The RoF is decent too, the standard 2rpm

        But whatever the problem is with those guns (that i simply can’t see), you do know that it’s a game right? The devs can change stats any way they feel best for the sake of balance.So don’t worry, they’re going to be just fine.

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        1. No, they’re really that bad.

          The projectile weight is almost 15% lower than a regular 356mm gun.
          It loses all its speed very fast, making an already poor initial penetration value even worse.
          Bursting charge means nothing if it doesn’t penetrate.

          They were historically extremely dissapointing guns, and that’s coming fro mthe mouths (or rather hands) of distinguished naval warfare historians.
          And the guns, while tweaked (keyword) when needed, still retain historical authenticity when it comes to penetration, velocity and shell aerodynamics.
          And you can tweak the guns all you want, low velocity guns with poor mechanical accuracy and awful penetration just don’t work at tier7, espcially if you further gimp them with even less accuracy to compensate for 16 guns.

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  3. By the way, most guns of that era had guns with muzzle velocities lower than 800mps. Look at what we have in the game, not even close. Almost all the guns in the game have been vastly improved for the sake of gameplay.

    Above i was looking at REAL numbers from the real guns. I’m looking that the spreadsheet now and they’re even better in there. I don’t see what you’re talking about.

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    1. The real number is 800m/s
      On a very light shell for a gun that size (a full 100kg lighter).

      That translate to very poor characteristics at higher (10km+) ranges.
      Coupled with poor penetration, due to again the lightweight shell and overall poor shell design with the large bursting charge, and you have a low velocity potato gun.

      It’s not me you’re arguing against, it’s historians saying that the 340mm gun was just bad.

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    2. btw:

      Real spreadsheets using common formulaes
      http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Penetration_Japan.htm
      http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/Penetration_France.htm

      Comparing the Japanese 356mm/45 with the French 340mm/50 (a long barrel version of the ones on the Lyon and Bretagne) with US formulaes (US EFF)
      At 0m, the 356mm has roughly 26″ of penetration, and 17″ at 10k
      At 0m, the 340mm has 15″, and 11″ at 10km

      At the max range of 29km for the 340mm, it only has 8″ of penetration, for the 9.4″ for the 256mm

      And that’s for the long barreled version of the gun firing the standard APC M1924
      The guns literally don’t have enough penetration at 0m to punch through dreadnoughts.

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  4. Again,calm down…they’re OK. And it’s a game. A VIDEO GAME. If the devs want them to be OK they will tune them to be OK. It’s a game, not real life.

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  5. Pretty much the exact tech tree i made few months ago but without the lyon (that i would actually put at tier VI because of the poor 340mm guns) and the Strasbourg one tier below (i was thinking tier VII). Also going for a modern design at tier VI (strasbourg) and reversing with an old design at tier VII (lyon) don’t feel really good.

    I’m perfectly fine with the TX either the A or B hull. Keep those filthy 406mm for the ‘Muricans and let me enjoy a full broadside of 16 lower caliber gun. (or a few 450mm guns)

    Hope this will make it to live. ;)

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  6. This tech tree is perfect for me. The Charlemagne alone has the firepower of 2 Bismarcks… Imagine burying enemies with 16 15″ shells…

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